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heating elements

 
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Firebrewmedic43




Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 104
Location: Tennessee

Drinking: barrel-aged Foreign Export Stout

Working on: Helles


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:17 am    Post subject: heating elements Reply with quote


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I want to use two elements in both my HLT and Boil tank. I want to be able to ramp up my temp quickly in the HLT but then use only one of the elements to maintain the temperature. Is there a way to wire the 3-way switch to accomplish this?

Position 1 = both elements
Position 2 = off
position 3 = 1 element
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wscottcross




Joined: 03 Jul 2015
Posts: 212
Location: CT

Drinking: Launch IPA, Double Sunshine clone, Maple Coffee breakfast stout

Working on: expanding my beer horizons (and my beltline)


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like that would be pretty simple to accomplish. I would wire the output of the PID to a 3 way switch. The switch would then either drive one SSR or two, depending on it's position. Each SSR would drive a separate element.
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Kal clone controller, 30 gallon Spike Brewing kettles, 6 tap keezer
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Firebrewmedic43




Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 104
Location: Tennessee

Drinking: barrel-aged Foreign Export Stout

Working on: Helles


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know i could use two 2-way switches to accomplish this but i thought if i could wire it to a 3 way then it would give me more room on the panel and a little cleaner look. I haven't gotten my PIDs yet and I haven't seen that configuration on this site, would the directions aid me in wiring the elements in that manner?
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wscottcross




Joined: 03 Jul 2015
Posts: 212
Location: CT

Drinking: Launch IPA, Double Sunshine clone, Maple Coffee breakfast stout

Working on: expanding my beer horizons (and my beltline)


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could be done either way. If you want a single switch, you'll have to sort out the wiring on your own. Essentially the PID output would go to the input on both sides of the switch and the output of the switch would go either one or two SSR/elements. You're in custom territory and Kal's design won't help you sort that out.
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Kal clone controller, 30 gallon Spike Brewing kettles, 6 tap keezer
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wscottcross




Joined: 03 Jul 2015
Posts: 212
Location: CT

Drinking: Launch IPA, Double Sunshine clone, Maple Coffee breakfast stout

Working on: expanding my beer horizons (and my beltline)


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

keep in mind also that you need a 50 amp setup to fire dual elements.
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Kal clone controller, 30 gallon Spike Brewing kettles, 6 tap keezer
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Firebrewmedic43




Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 104
Location: Tennessee

Drinking: barrel-aged Foreign Export Stout

Working on: Helles


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, i'm planning all of my electrical components to the 50 amp design on here. thanks for the input
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: heating elements Reply with quote

Firebrewmedic43 wrote:
I want to be able to ramp up my temp quickly in the HLT but then use only one of the elements to maintain the temperature.

Why? There's no benefit to doing this, only downsides.

With 2 elements running, the amount of time that the PID will need to fire the elements will simply be shorter to maintain temp than if there was 1 element. The PID will manage this without the operator having to do anything.

Doing what you propose won't get you a system that holds temp any more accurately. In fact, it would be the opposite since the PID can only be tuned to understand how the system behaves with one or two elements, not sometimes one and sometimes two. See the tuning steps here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-setup

(You can't tune it to both ways).

Say you tune the PID with only 1 element running, the following will happen: At the start with 2 elements running to get to temp, the PID will likely overshoot the target temp since you've got twice as much power as the PID thinks it has. Once you turn the switch and only have 1 element running, then the temp will likely stabilize correctly since now the PID is actually controlling the amount of power it thought it had all along.

Say you tune the PID with 2 elements running, the following will happen: At the start with 2 elements running to get to temp, the PID will hit the target temp correctly since you're giving it the amount of power it thinks it has to work with. Once you turn the switch and only have 1 element running however, the temp may not stabilize correctly since the PID only has 50% of the power to work with it thinks it has. It'll fire the element but only get 50% as much power as it thinks it has and it would end up only 50% to its target. You may not be able to get to a stable temp since you basically "told" the PID it controls 2 elements but in reality there's only one now.

Doing what you propose would end up with a more complex setup, more cost, more parts, more work for the operator, and less accuracy.

If you want 2 elements in the HLT, I highly recommend sticking to letting two elements run in the HLT at all times.

Kal

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Firebrewmedic43




Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 104
Location: Tennessee

Drinking: barrel-aged Foreign Export Stout

Working on: Helles


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My motivation to do this was to plan for expansion to bigger kettles in the future. Right now I have converted kegs. Eventually I would like to go to at least 20 gallon pots. Being energy conscious I had thought I might be able to get it up to temp with two elements and then save power by keeping the HLT at temp with just one element. I would like the ability to do the back to back batches as outlined on this site. I'm planning on a 50amp system. Can I run two element in the HLT and BT at the same time with 5500 elements? I know that two 4500 elements in each tank would work and not overload the system. But would still like to be able to have that quick ramp with the 5500 elements when I don't do back to back batches
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Firebrewmedic43




Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 104
Location: Tennessee

Drinking: barrel-aged Foreign Export Stout

Working on: Helles


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After rereading the guide would there be a problem in using a 4500 and 5500 in the same kettle? And run them both at the same time? Again looking to the future.
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firebrewmedic43 wrote:
Being energy conscious I had thought I might be able to get it up to temp with two elements and then save power by keeping the HLT at temp with just one element.

There wouldn't be any difference in energy use. To get same amount of heat out of 1 element you'd run it twice as long as 2 elements, so same result in terms of power consumption.

Quote:
I would like the ability to do the back to back batches as outlined on this site. I'm planning on a 50amp system. Can I run two element in the HLT and BT at the same time with 5500 elements?

Run 4 elements at the same time? No, that would require a 100A panel.

Kal

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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firebrewmedic43 wrote:
After rereading the guide would there be a problem in using a 4500 and 5500 in the same kettle? And run them both at the same time? Again looking to the future.


From the FAQs:

Quote:
Can I use two 5500W elements (11000W total) instead of two 4500W elements (9000W total)?

Most likely, but before using dual 5500W elements check with your local electrical authority or your electrician to confirm that the additional power draw is allowed on your 50 amp circuit. The electrical code varies from location to location.

Generally speaking, the electrical code in most locations requires that you do not use more than 80% of a circuit's capacity. On a 50A/240V circuit 11000W uses 92% (45.8A) while 9000W uses only 75% (37.5A).

This topic is a point of debate amongst electric brewers as it is somewhat open to individual interpretation of the electrical code (which may vary by region). The electrical code in the US and many other places states "the wiring for a continuously loaded appliance without a motor needs to be rated at 125% of the marked rating of that appliance". In other words, do not use more than 80% capacity which with a 50A circuit would be 40A, or 9600W. The electrical code defines a continuous load as "A load where the maximum current is expected to continue for 3 hours or more" and goes further to state that "A fixed storage-type water heater that has a capacity of 120 gal or less shall be considered a continuous load". The arguments made for and against using 11000W on a 50A circuit typically revolve around whether someone thinks that the elements will be fired for more than 3 hours continuously and/or whether or not an electric brewing setup is classified as a "fixed storage-type water heater" (given that we use the electric heating elements found in hot water tanks and the functionality is somewhat similar).

For further information please contact your local electrical authority or speak to an electrician.


Running a combination of a 4500W + 5500W element (10,000W) is basically the same question. On a 50A/240V circuit 10000W uses 83% (41.6A) of the circuit.

Many brewers choose and do do 10,000W to 11,000W on a 50A circuit but I feel it prudent to tell people to "ask their electrician". I can't say "sure, you're fine". I want people to know and understand the issue and make the choice themselves.

Kal

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We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firebrewmedic43 wrote:
My motivation to do this was to plan for expansion to bigger kettles in the future. Right now I have converted kegs. Eventually I would like to go to at least 20 gallon pots.

I missed this part so just to make sure it's clear:

The 50A control panel for 30+ gallons allows for 2 heating elements in the HLT, and 2 in the Boil. Today, with smaller kettles, simply use one heating element in the kettles. In the future, add an extra element per kettle to the new kettles to move up to.

The 50A control panel for 30+ gallons works just fine driving only one heating element per kettle but allows room to expand to two per kettle in the future if you like.

Many people are building or buying it just to be "future proof".

Other than the initial up front cost, there are zero downsides to getting a 50A control panel for 30+ gallons and only running it with one heating element per kettle.

For complete details, read the FAQ here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24918

It covers questions like:

When would I want a 50A control panel for 30+ gallons?
Are there any downsides to using this control panel?
Can I use this control panel to brew less than 20 gallons?
Can I unplug one of the heating elements when making smaller batches?
How much faster does 9000-11000W heat compared to 5500W?


Good luck!

Kal

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Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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Firebrewmedic43




Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 104
Location: Tennessee

Drinking: barrel-aged Foreign Export Stout

Working on: Helles


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I retread it again..I think I was trying to get the best of back to back batches and 30 + gallons. As you have stated to do that would require a bigger amp configuration. Thanks I think I'm good now
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Firebrewmedic43




Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 104
Location: Tennessee

Drinking: barrel-aged Foreign Export Stout

Working on: Helles


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just too make sure I can configure for the 30+ system and run one element in both pots simultaneously as the system draw would still be just 9000-11000w?
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firebrewmedic43 wrote:
Just too make sure I can configure for the 30+ system and run one element in both pots simultaneously as the system draw would still be just 9000-11000w?

No - that requires the 50A back to back system.

There are 3 panel designs available:

> Standard 30A control panel: For producing up to 20 gallons of finished product per batch. A single 4500-5500W element is used in both the boil kettle and hot liquor tank. This is our standard control panel. Only one element may be on at once so brewing back to back batches takes longer.

> 50A control panel for back to back batches: For producing up to 20 gallons of finished product per batch. A single 4500-5500W* element is used in both the boil kettle and hot liquor tank. Both heating elements may be run at the same time in order to speed up brewing back to back batches. For more information see our FAQ: Adapting for a back to back setup: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25793

> 50A control panel for 30+ gallons: For producing more than 30 gallons of finished product per batch and/or for brewers looking to speed up their brew day by reducing heat times. Perfect for 1-3 bbl pilot electric brewing systems. Two 4500-5500W* elements are used per kettle for a total of 9000-11000W. Like the standard 30A control panel, only one kettle may be powered at a time. If you're consistently producing 30 gallons or more then we highly recommend the 50A control panel for 30+ gallons. Only brewing smaller batches now but may want to go bigger in the future? Consider this control panel as well. For more information see our FAQ: Adapting for a 30+ gallon setup: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24918


Some here have talked about combining the two 50A panels such that you can run it one way or the other, but I don't think anyone found a good way to make it easy to use. I think it would be overly confusing with lots of buttons/switches. You'd need to be very careful with how the interlocks and done to ensure that you'd never pull more than the rated 50A (ie: Never have more than 2 elements on at once).

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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View user's photo album (21 photos)
wscottcross




Joined: 03 Jul 2015
Posts: 212
Location: CT

Drinking: Launch IPA, Double Sunshine clone, Maple Coffee breakfast stout

Working on: expanding my beer horizons (and my beltline)


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firebrewmedic43 wrote:
Just too make sure I can configure for the 30+ system and run one element in both pots simultaneously as the system draw would still be just 9000-11000w?


I think you mean the 50 amp system (30+ gallon)? If so, then yes you can run both elements simultaneously.
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Firebrewmedic43




Joined: 23 Dec 2014
Posts: 104
Location: Tennessee

Drinking: barrel-aged Foreign Export Stout

Working on: Helles


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. I plan on building the 50 amp system configured for 30 gallons. However if I unplug one of the elements in each pot then I can essentially use it as a back to back batch system since only two elements are being fired, one in the HLT and one in the BT. Am I on track with my thinking ?
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firebrewmedic43 wrote:
Yes. I plan on building the 50 amp system configured for 30 gallons. However if I unplug one of the elements in each pot then I can essentially use it as a back to back batch system since only two elements are being fired, one in the HLT and one in the BT. Am I on track with my thinking ?

No - the 50A panel for 30+ gallons can only run one kettle at a time, regardless of how many elements are plugged in. For complete details see my previous post above.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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