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50A Control Panel back to back
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mplsugly



Joined: 30 Dec 2017
Posts: 6



PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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I see that you use 30 amp fuses to the elements on this design. Is there any reason this would be better than a 2 pole 30 amp breaker?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10610
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Breakers work too. Thatís what we use for our prebuilt panels. Anyone wanting one of our kits who prefers breakers instead, weíre happy to substitute.

Example:



Kal

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Last edited by kal on Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mjo2125



Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 238
Location: Dayton, OH

Drinking: Pale Ale, Yorkshire Bitter, Mango Blonde Ale

Working on: Retro American Lager


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

are schematics available for the use (substitution) with breakers?

thx
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10610
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wiring is identical. Similar to using contactors instead of relays. (They just look different and/or may be mounted in a different orientation if they're DIN rail based). The wiring is the same however. The schematic would not change.

Kal

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Big Stogie



Joined: 13 Mar 2018
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:19 pm    Post subject: Back to Back has fuses Reply with quote

I noticed in the back to back 50 amp panel fuses are called out but in the 30 amp panel they are not. Since we are using a single element on each SSR in both the load seems the same to me there so what prompted the change?
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10610
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Back to Back has fuses Reply with quote

Big Stogie wrote:
I noticed in the back to back 50 amp panel fuses are called out but in the 30 amp panel they are not. Since we are using a single element on each SSR in both the load seems the same to me there so what prompted the change?

Fuses and/or breakers are used to protect wires since there is both 30A (10 ga) and 50A (6 ga) wiring in the 50A design. The 30A design only has 10 ga wire in the high current sections which is protected by the building 30A breaker.

From the design (first post in this thread) in the HEATING ELEMENTS section:

Quote:
30A fuses are added to protect the 30A element receptacles and wiring. Why? On the standard 30A control panel the 30A circuit breaker in the electrical panel wall protects the 10 ga wiring so additional fuses are not required. With this 50A panel the 50A circuit breaker in the electrical panel protects the 6ga wiring but we now need to add protection for the smaller 10ga wiring between the contactors and the kettles (both inside the panel and out).

Remember that both elements can be run at once. Hence the need for higher current 6 ga wiring (for 50A).

Welcome to the forum!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Big Stogie



Joined: 13 Mar 2018
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kai, I must have read this 10 times, not sure how I didn't get that. I'm thinking din rails so breakers will be in order too
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10610
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're interested in a DIN rail build let us know - we can supply you a kit (our pre-built panels use DIN rail parts where it makes sense). Price is the same.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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mjo2125



Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 238
Location: Dayton, OH

Drinking: Pale Ale, Yorkshire Bitter, Mango Blonde Ale

Working on: Retro American Lager


PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another use for a 50 amp set-up is experimentation. For my brew club, I'll be performing a FWH experiment. The set-up includes mashing a 12 gallon batch and sparging the entire volume to the BLT at 1 gallon every 5 minutes. Once the BLT is filled, the temp controller on the BLT will be set to 170 deg-f and the wort recirculated to hold the 170 deg-f. At that time, the HLT will be emptied of liquor and the HERMS coil in the HLT will be removed - the HERMS coil in my set-up doesn't require tools to remove it.

FWH hops will be placed in the HLT at which time the BLT element will be turned OFF and 1/2 of the BLT wort volume will be pumped to the HLT at 1/2 gallon every 5 minutes (using a riptide pump & linear flow valve) to simulate sparging flow rate and allow the FWH hop to steep (at about 160 deg-f) in the HLT. Transfer time will be about 30 minutes. I'm not exactly thrilled with keeping hot wort hanging around for long - but this is an experiment after all. Once the HLT is filled, both BLT and HLT elements will be turned ON for full simultaneous boils.

This approach avoids brewing two back-to-back batches and eliminates a few variables - grain bill amount measuring differences, mash differences, sparging differences and rates, etc.

One other use for the 50 amp set-up - in a pinch, one could brew two simultaneous extract batches (by removing the HERMS coil) - say a pale ale and a European lager at the same time. For an all-grain brewer this maybe heresy, but still an option in a pinch...
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mjo2125



Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 238
Location: Dayton, OH

Drinking: Pale Ale, Yorkshire Bitter, Mango Blonde Ale

Working on: Retro American Lager


PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

correction - rate is 1 gallon every 5 minutes
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wamay01



Joined: 11 Aug 2019
Posts: 2
Location: Hebron, KY

Drinking: Wiessbock

Working on: Pale Ale - Barrel Aged Russian Imp and my back to back control panel


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trying to figure out how to connect the 6 Ga wire to the SSR. Can you tell me what connectors people are using? I've ordered every connector "The Electric Brewery" sells. (I think) and purchased other connectors and I've found nothing that is big enough for the wire and small enough for the hold down screws.
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mjo2125



Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 238
Location: Dayton, OH

Drinking: Pale Ale, Yorkshire Bitter, Mango Blonde Ale

Working on: Retro American Lager


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the one I used - had to go to an industrial electrical supply store. Had to apply a lot of force to crimp it down. There may be other softer materials but I just used the first lug available.


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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10610
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We use this: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/wiring/products/6-gauge-ring-terminal-10-hole
It's included in our hits.

We then throw some heatshrink on it. A pic: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2400/0975/products/CPA50B2B_7_f51c4c3b-5e45-4622-a725-e70fa803e74f.jpg

You see it on the top left of the SSRs. Top right has a 10ga yellow crimp.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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wamay01



Joined: 11 Aug 2019
Posts: 2
Location: Hebron, KY

Drinking: Wiessbock

Working on: Pale Ale - Barrel Aged Russian Imp and my back to back control panel


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:44 pm    Post subject: Connecting 6 ga to SSR's Reply with quote

Thank you Kal and mjo2125 for the extremely quick response! I'm going to go ahead and order the parts from TEB. Another quick question. The wiring diagram for the heating elements shows a 10 ga wire connecting SSR to SSR. The photograph shows a 6 ga to the 2nd SSR. Does it matter, or should I go with the 6 ga. By the way thank you for the great site, finally building my control panel after stalking this site for years.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10610
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Connecting 6 ga to SSR's Reply with quote

wamay01 wrote:
Another quick question. The wiring diagram for the heating elements shows a 10 ga wire connecting SSR to SSR. The photograph shows a 6 ga to the 2nd SSR. Does it matter, or should I go with the 6 ga.

Both work (6ga is overkill) but happens to fit better with the combination of connector/wire/SSR we use. Good luck!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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Killion



Joined: 16 Dec 2010
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:00 am    Post subject: Two 10 gauge wires instead Reply with quote

Hi, I was wondering if it would be possible to run two 10 gauge wires instead of a six gauge wire and then a 10 gauge wire between the relays. Thanks!


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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10610
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Creamsicle, London Pride, Kolsch, Belgian IPA, Red IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen, Belgian Quad, Wit, English Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle


PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you can do that. You may run into the issue that the source relay (contactor) on the far right can't take two 10 ga wires. Not all can. I that's the case use one of these splitters to have 6 ga go in and 2 x 10 ga come out: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/products/50a-power-distribution-block
As indicated in the wiring instructions we include these in our control panel kits (when required).

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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Killion



Joined: 16 Dec 2010
Posts: 25



PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great, thank you! I wired my panel up years ago before the specific 50a instructions. Having these helps a lot.
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