Return to TheElectricBrewery.com
  [ Shop ]   [ Building ]   [ Using ]   [ Recipes ]   [ Testimonials ]   [ Gallery ]   [ FAQ ]   [ About Us ]   [ Contact Us ]   [ Newsletter ]

Log inLog in   RegisterRegister   User Control PanelUser Control Panel   Private MessagesPrivate Messages   MembershipClub Memberships   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   Photo AlbumsPhoto Albums   Forum FAQForum FAQ


50A Control Panel back to back
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Building Your Brewery
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
curve393




Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


        Register to remove this ad. It's free!
I purchased the complete guide a few days ago and am currently developing my build list. The guide has been very helpful, thanks for that. I'm planning to make some modifications in an effort to keep my panel simple and lower in cost. My plan is to not include the Amp meter, volt meter, lights, timer, or alarm. As a result of my modifications, I want to confirm a couple of things:

1) I will not need the shunt, adjustable power supplier, or step-down transformers?

2) Because there is no shunt, the black hot wire from the #1 position of the 50a contactor will now go directly to the HLT SSR?

3) The 7a fuse will connect to #1 of the 50a contactor than go to hot bus?

4) There is no need for red 14 gauge wire since I have no lights?
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

curve393 wrote:
I purchased the complete guide a few days ago and am currently developing my build list. The guide has been very helpful, thanks for that. I'm planning to make some modifications in an effort to keep my panel simple and lower in cost. My plan is to not include the Amp meter, volt meter, lights, timer, or alarm. As a result of my modifications, I want to confirm a couple of things:

1) I will not need the shunt, adjustable power supplier, or step-down transformers?

Correct.

Quote:
2) Because there is no shunt, the black hot wire from the #1 position of the 50a contactor will now go directly to the HLT SSR?

Yes. Think of the shunt as simply one big connection point were all 4 wires (2 big, 2 small) are joined. If the shunt's not there, simply extend the wires to wherever they need to go.

Quote:
3) The 7a fuse will connect to #1 of the 50a contactor than go to hot bus?

No - To #1 position of the 50A power in contactor.

Quote:
4) There is no need for red 14 gauge wire since I have no lights?

Correct. If I'm not mistaken it seems red 14ga is only used for the 220V ELEMENT ON lights.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
curve393




Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal. Your help is much appreciated.

-Josh


Last edited by curve393 on Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
ChukInaTruk




Joined: 23 Jan 2014
Posts: 63
Location: Chicago, IL West burbs


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:17 am    Post subject: My Back to Back 50amp Reply with quote

Kal,

I just wanted to thank you for this site and the forums. After my first batch
I'll be buying you a beer. Just finished my panel from your DIY 50amp BTB kit
with a few mods. I'll be posting finished photos once the brewery build out is
completed on another thread. I just wanted to show guys that are looking at
doing the BTB that there is enough room on the panel to fit a second timer. It
was easy to follow your instructions and fun to build. Thanks again for
everything.

Chuck



untitled.png
 Description:
 Filesize:  519.52 KB
 Viewed:  29733 Time(s)

untitled.png



untitled2.png
 Description:
 Filesize:  587.03 KB
 Viewed:  29734 Time(s)

untitled2.png



_________________
The mouth of a perfectly happy man is filled with beer:)
Back to top
spicktacular




Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 32
Location: United States


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
curve393 wrote:
I purchased the complete guide a few days ago and am currently developing my build list. The guide has been very helpful, thanks for that. I'm planning to make some modifications in an effort to keep my panel simple and lower in cost. My plan is to not include the Amp meter, volt meter, lights, timer, or alarm. As a result of my modifications, I want to confirm a couple of things:

1) I will not need the shunt, adjustable power supplier, or step-down transformers?

Correct.

Quote:
2) Because there is no shunt, the black hot wire from the #1 position of the 50a contactor will now go directly to the HLT SSR?

Yes. Think of the shunt as simply one big connection point were all 4 wires (2 big, 2 small) are joined. If the shunt's not there, simply extend the wires to wherever they need to go.

Quote:
3) The 7a fuse will connect to #1 of the 50a contactor than go to hot bus?

No - To #1 position of the 50A power in contactor.

Quote:
4) There is no need for red 14 gauge wire since I have no lights?

Correct. If I'm not mistaken it seems red 14ga is only used for the 220V ELEMENT ON lights.

Kal


Hi Kal,
I need a bit of clarification on your answer for #3. You said "No, to the #1 Position of the 50A Contactor." Where does the other end of the fuse hook to? One connects to the 50 A power in Contactor, the other attaches?

Thanks!
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spicktacular wrote:

Quote:
3) The 7a fuse will connect to #1 of the 50a contactor than go to hot bus?

No - To #1 position of the 50A power in contactor.

Err - wait - you were right the first time. The fuse goes between the upper #1 point on the 50A power in contactor and the hot bus if you don't want a shunt. Sorry for the confusion.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
curve393




Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem I knew what you meant. I got the panel built and did my first brew last weekend. Worked like a dream! Thanks for the help.

Josh
Back to top
tae




Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36



PostLink    Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 7:07 am    Post subject: 50A Back to back Reply with quote

What changes would have to be made in order to create a 50A back to back control panel to brew 30+ gallons back to back?

Obviously something like a 100'a control panel. Provided i could supply the power, what would have to change inside the panel?

Cheers
TAE
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 50A Back to back Reply with quote

tae wrote:
What changes would have to be made in order to create a 50A back to back control panel to brew 30+ gallons back to back?

Obviously something like a 100'a control panel. Provided i could supply the power, what would have to change inside the panel?


A 100A panel would indeed be required. Most of the 50A items would have to be changed to 100A. 100A wiring is considerably more difficult to work with so you'd have to rethink the whole thing I think and use a much larger enclosure.

Keep in mind too that parts rated for more than 50A are considerably more expensive and harder to find as they are specialized (not standardized). For example, there is no NEMA standard for plugs/receptacles above 50A. So a control panel above 50A typically need to be hard-wired which itself introduces complexities and other concerns such as electrical permitting as now the control panel becomes part of the building wiring.

If you do decide you need more power for a substantially larger setup, one option that many brewers use is to use our 50A control panel to maintain hot liquor temperature and boil, but temporarily add extra power with one or two separate 5500W heating elements on a separate 30-50A circuit. All that is required is one or two 30A outlets and a breaker box located near the kettles to turn them on and off (make sure the breakers are switch rated). Any electrician can wire this up. These breakers control the separate elements with the breaker box and turn them on to heat up the hot liquor tank water faster or to get to boil faster. Once close to target temperature, they're turned off and then the heating elements driven by our 50A control panel are used to maintain temperature/boil. While maybe not as elegant, this is a more cost effective solution than building one massive control panel to handle more than 50A of power.

Good luck!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
curve393




Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 50A Back to back Reply with quote

tae wrote:
What changes would have to be made in order to create a 50A back to back control panel to brew 30+ gallons back to back?

Obviously something like a 100'a control panel. Provided i could supply the power, what would have to change inside the panel?

Cheers
TAE




I've thought a lot about this too. Right now I brew in 15 gal vessels but one day it's my plan to upgrade to a 30 gal setup. Like Kal said, attempting to upgrade the current back to back system to accommodate 100 amps would be difficult. Just trying to work with wire rated at 100 amps, in and of itself, would be a big challenge. Let alone trying to source the parts. I've thought that the best option may be to keep the current panel I have (based on Kal's design) and have it operate everything but the brew kettle heating elements. I'll probably build a second simple analog 50 amp panel to operate the elements in the brew kettle. All I need is for the liquid to boil so a analog setup would be perfect for this purpose. I imagine that I can do this for a few hundred $. Of course I will also need to added another 50 amp gfci breaker or a spa panel to accommodate the the additional brewing panel but that is certainly not difficult to do. -Josh
Back to top
engnorway




Joined: 20 May 2015
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 11:14 pm    Post subject: Amount of 6 gauge black wire in conversion Reply with quote

You state that in doing the conversion to 50A BTB system the black wire going from the shunt to the HLT SSR should be converted to 6 gauge and 7 feet are needed. But it seems like the distance from the shunt to the SSR is way less than 7 feet. Does the 6 gauge need to be converted from the shunt all the way through the two SSRs and finally ending at the boil and HLT relays? Or is the 7 feet a typo?

Thanks
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 20, 2015 11:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Amount of 6 gauge black wire in conversion Reply with quote

engnorway wrote:
You state that in doing the conversion to 50A BTB system the black wire going from the shunt to the HLT SSR should be converted to 6 gauge and 7 feet are needed. But it seems like the distance from the shunt to the SSR is way less than 7 feet.

True. That does seem high. I lowered it. It depends on whatever routing you use. You always use considerably more wire than you think however since clean wiring means doing a lot of right angles. We always supply more than required in our kits too. Use whatever you need.

Quote:
Does the 6 gauge need to be converted from the shunt all the way through the two SSRs and finally ending at the boil and HLT relays?

No. The diagrams are correct.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
engnorway




Joined: 20 May 2015
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 6:40 pm    Post subject: No power to PIDs - help Reply with quote

In another response you stated:

Quote:
The fuse goes between the upper #1 point on the 50A power in contactor and the hot bus if you don't want a shunt. Sorry for the confusion.

Kal


I made some kind of error when wiring everything and put the 7A fuse between coil 1 on the power in contactor and the PIDs actually powered up. However, the PIDs were giving me the "orAL" and of course the heating element lights were not coming on nor were the heating elements working. I then re-read through this and saw the discussion of the fuse. I moved the fuse to be on the top #1 and now the PIDs do not com on at all.

I've reviewed all the images and photos and I am pretty confident I have everything wired the same. I removed the power on light and meters (hence the shunt) and the timer but other than that everything else I've left. What am I missing?
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure engnorway. Without seeing it in person, it's very difficult to know where the problem is. Most of the time it's typically a wiring issue. I know you mentioned that you think you have it all the same, but if I had a nickel for every time someone said that and the issue was indeed wiring, I'd be a rich man. Take a day off and then look at it again with a fresh set of eyes. Good luck!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
tae




Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36



PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:06 am    Post subject: 240V 50A panel also back to back Reply with quote

I am currently building a 50A 240V panel. I am considering modifying the panel with the required switches also making it a back to back panel. My thoughts are, that I want to be able to use the panel as a normal 50A panel with either 2 elements in the boil kettle or 2 elements in the HLT running at the same time. I Also want to be able to use it as a back to back panel with only one element running in both the boil kettle and HLT at the same time. I would need a few extra switches and some modifications to wiring in order for this to work? Has anyone done this or is this not even possible?

Regards Smile
Back to top
Gameface




Joined: 07 Feb 2015
Posts: 120
Location: West Jordan, UT


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The final step in adapting for back to back brewing is to use three pumps. You CANNOT continuously brew back to back without three pumps. You will have to stop your mash while you use a pump for you boiled wort if you only use two pumps.

Just a little public service announcement.
Back to top
LarMoeCur




Joined: 14 Feb 2015
Posts: 18



PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal,

I'm "T-minus" 10 days and counting until I light off my 50A Back to Back. In the process of conducting my pre-light-off check list. I found that I mistakenly put in 240v 10a fuse holders connecting the relay to the element. I'm swapping them out for sure to 30a holders. My question is what type fuse holder should I get? There are type CC, type T, and bunch of others all with fast acting 30a fuses. What do type fuse do you recommend?
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For our resistive load use, any "30A 250VAC fast blow glass fuse" will do what you want. Many of the class ratings deal with the features/voltage/current limitation/AC vs DC/etc. (All things outlined in the specs when we say "30A 250VAC fast blow glass fuse"). It can be able to handle more than 250VAC too (though there's no need - it'll be more expensive).

Good luck!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Islandbrewer




Joined: 26 Jan 2016
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 50A Back to back Reply with quote

kal wrote:


If you do decide you need more power for a substantially larger setup, one option that many brewers use is to use our 50A control panel to maintain hot liquor temperature and boil, but temporarily add extra power with one or two separate 5500W heating elements on a separate 30-50A circuit. All that is required is one or two 30A outlets and a breaker box located near the kettles to turn them on and off (make sure the breakers are switch rated). Any electrician can wire this up. These breakers control the separate elements with the breaker box and turn them on to heat up the hot liquor tank water faster or to get to boil faster. Once close to target temperature, they're turned off and then the heating elements driven by our 50A control panel are used to maintain temperature/boil. While maybe not as elegant, this is a more cost effective solution than building one massive control panel to handle more than 50A of power.

Good luck!

Kal


I want make a panel based off this 50A back to back panel, but instead of just having "On" or "Off" for the Boil and HTL element switch, I'd like "Off", "1" and "2". It would run on "1" exactly as this 50A B2B panel does, but for "2" I would provide a second 50A power source the would supply the power for the secondary element in each pot. I think this would pretty straight forward, I'm just not sure how hard it will be to integrate the key, emergency shutoff and other safety features into the secondary 50A circuit.

This is probably beyond the scope of your support, but if it's as simple as a few extra wires to integrate the secondary circuit, would you mind sharing? It'd be greatly appreciated and I think there would be a bit of interest in it. There was one guy a few pages back wanting to do similar.

Thanks,
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Islandbrewer - I'm afraid designing a custom setup like this is just not something I have time for. Sorry! I used to get dozens of custom design requests/day so I had to start saying no to everyone as it can easily take many hours to work out a solution, think of a all the permutations to ensure the design is sound and safe, and then document it with diagrams that people can understand.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Building Your Brewery All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 5 of 7
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum



Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group