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50A Control Panel back to back
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micahshaw




Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 5



PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject: step mash? Reply with quote


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I haven't ever heard anyone talk about this, so I am curious to hear your thoughts. First, I am glad you are finally offering this back-to-back system, as I consider this an absolute MUST HAVE feature. (We have limited days available, so its great to maximize the number of beers we can crank out in a day.) But now that you have the ability to run both kettles at once, it would seem advantageous to heat up additional water in the BK while you are mashing, and then pump the new "strike water" into the HLT to quickly raise the temp to mash out temps. This also seems like a good way to do step mashing. Do you guys see any issues with doing this? Would there be too much volume needed to make this work?

-micah
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huaco




Joined: 05 Apr 2012
Posts: 1506
Location: Burleson Texas


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a buddy over for a brew day last week. he and I were discussing this exact topic. I have the B2B system and already heat strike water in the BK. He asked why I didnt use the bk to heat water to raise the mash to mash out temps. I thought it was a great idea.
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: step mash? Reply with quote

micahshaw wrote:
But now that you have the ability to run both kettles at once, it would seem advantageous to heat up additional water in the BK while you are mashing, and then pump the new "strike water" into the HLT to quickly raise the temp to mash out temps. This also seems like a good way to do step mashing. Do you guys see any issues with doing this? Would there be too much volume needed to make this work?

Without actually trying it, I don't know. Volumes may matter too like you mention. For this to save time at all you'd have to heat the BK water past the 168F mashout temp and then add it the HLT to bring the mash up faster than just heating up the HLT water. How much hotter? I don't know. That would depend on both volumes the temp used during mashing. The math behind this is not something I want to think about.

Now, given that the back to back setup is for smaller batches (20 gallons or less) to begin with and that it only takes me about 20 mins to go to mashout when I do 12 gallon batches, I don't see how much time could be possibly saved by doing what you propose. At most it's probably 15-20 minutes since you still need to transfer, move hoses around, etc. It sounds like a lot of extra work for minimal gain.

If you need to make more beer, usually the suggested solution is to get a bigger setup, not to brew more often. Brewing more often drives the cost up considerably since you pay twice as much for labour to brew (say) two 20 gallon batches instead of one 40 gallon batch.

Many will tell you it is very difficult to make less than 5-7 bbl per batch and actually make it profitable. Some will brew it themselves and not paying themselves, but that is not sound (or sustainable) business model.

A really good read: http://www.soundbrew.com/small.html

Kal

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Holter




Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 221
Location: Los Angeles, Ca


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont see why you couldnt step mash that way, but i doubt it will be that much faster. I have done a few step mashes on my system and I always do a mash out step so i have some experience with this process. on my system it takes less than 10 minutes to get the HLT up from 150 to 168 for mash out. the MLT takes much longer because there is so much more "mass" to heat up. So while i dont see the problem with doing this i doubt the advantage would be substantial.
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Holter
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holter makes a good point: The 20 mins to get to mashout temp for me is for the GRAIN to get to mashout. Like Holter mentions the HLT gets from 150 to 168F much faster.

From my FAQ:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/FAQ#How_long_does_it_take_to_heat_with_electricity_

Quote:

Quote:
A 5500W heating element such as the one we use will raise the temperature of 1 gallon of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit in approximately 1.6 seconds.


So when I'm ready to mashout I usually about have 12 gallons left in the HLT. To go from 150 to 168 is 18 degrees, so 18 x 12 x 1.6 = 345 seconds or 5.76 minutes to get the HLT water to mashout temp.

The mash then follows. So really the max time you could be saving is 5.76 minutes (assuming 150 mash temp and 12 gallons in the HLT). Since it takes time to transfer I doubt there would be much of any savings at all. Maybe a minute or two. Couple that with the extra work. I don't see the point.

You could try overshooting by heating in the BK way past the HLT temp to bring the mash up faster but that sounds like a difficult exercise prone to error.

Kal

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micahshaw




Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 5



PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good discussion. So it sounds like ya, you could do that, but why bother. By the time you did the math to figure out necessary temp for the BK, you could have just heated the HLT directly. Sounds good, thanks guys.

-micah
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sincere01




Joined: 16 Jun 2012
Posts: 162
Location: Gresham OR


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got bored at work today and was contemplating upgrading my panel to a 50amp back to back panel. I probably wont do it anytime soon but looking towards the possibility in the future. As I was reading through here I was wondering if the 30amp fuses shouldn't be placed before the relays. Or make sure to replace those with 50amp contactors.

If the relays are only rated for 30 amps, but the main GFCI breaker is 50amp, and the fuses are placed after the relays, they wouldn't be protected right? Does that matter?

Also, question to anybody that has a back to back system or a 1bbl system or Mike or Kal if you know:

Is the hole for the 50amp california style power inlet the same size diameter as the the 57mm hole made for the 30amp CP's?
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sincere01 wrote:
I got bored at work today and was contemplating upgrading my panel to a 50amp back to back panel. I probably wont do it anytime soon but looking towards the possibility in the future. As I was reading through here I was wondering if the 30amp fuses shouldn't be placed before the relays. Or make sure to replace those with 50amp contactors.

If the relays are only rated for 30 amps, but the main GFCI breaker is 50amp, and the fuses are placed after the relays, they wouldn't be protected right? Does that matter?

No. Where you place the fuse doesn't matter (Before or after) it still protects the same way. WHen current flows it flows through the whole thing. Give the description a read again for how it works:

"30A fuses are added to protect the 30A element receptacles and wiring. Why? On the standard 30A control panel the 30A circuit breaker in the electrical panel wall protects the 10 ga wiring so additional fuses are not required. With this 50A panel the 50A circuit breaker in the electrical panel protects the 6ga wiring but we now need to add protection for the smaller 10ga wiring between the contactors and the kettles (both inside the panel and out)."

That said, while the position may not matter if everything works correctly, for safety reasons (best possible chance of success) the fuses are placed as close to the device(s) they are protecting which are the receptacles and 10 ga wiring.

Quote:
Is the hole for the 50amp california style power inlet the same size diameter as the the 57mm hole made for the 30amp CP's?

I don't think so. In the instructions Mike provides with the kits he also mentions that the 50A input receptacle that is shipped should be checked as they sometimes change (there are variances between manufacturers). So don't punch anything until you get the receptacle.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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sincere01




Joined: 16 Jun 2012
Posts: 162
Location: Gresham OR


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No. Where you place the fuse doesn't matter (Before or after) it still protects the same way. WHen current flows it flows through the whole thing.


Cool thanks. I wasn't sure.

Quote:
I don't think so. In the instructions Mike provides with the kits he also mentions that the 50A input receptacle that is shipped should be checked as they sometimes change (there are variances between manufacturers). So don't punch anything until you get the receptacle.


My hole is already punched. I was hoping to retrofit my current 30amp system by swapping out a few of the different pieces. But now I'm realizing that may not be possible. Not just because of that hole, but because the front of the panel was not designed to have the extra switch that is required. Which means if I want to upgrade I'll need a new box as well. Bummer.


Thanks for the quick response Kal, appreciate it.
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Spike Innovations
TheElectricBrewery.com manufacturer



Joined: 26 Feb 2011
Posts: 245
Location: ME

Working on: Your Brewery!


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 50amp receptacle is actually slightly smaller than the 30A one, but shares the same bolt hole pattern, so, yes it will fit in the existing hole.

EDIT ** The 50A receptacle I SUPPLY is smaller than the 30A one. This may not hold true for all of them**

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sincere01




Joined: 16 Jun 2012
Posts: 162
Location: Gresham OR


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mike
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Kevin59




Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Posts: 1047
Location: Fort Collins, CO

Drinking: Imperial Brown Ale

Working on: Oatmeal Stout, IPA


PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sincere01 wrote:
My hole is already punched. I was hoping to retrofit my current 30amp system by swapping out a few of the different pieces. But now I'm realizing that may not be possible. Not just because of that hole, but because the front of the panel was not designed to have the extra switch that is required. Which means if I want to upgrade I'll need a new box as well. Bummer.

Or maybe re-purpose you're existing whole pattern? Get rid of the alarm light to free up a hole? Move the alarm buzzer to the side of the box opposite the hinge and free up another hole?
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LiquidFlame




Joined: 22 Dec 2012
Posts: 35
Location: Normal, IL


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do the instructions show 30A relays when the kit comes with 30A contactors? I'm pretty confused on how to wire these especially when the one page document that comes with the kit says to use a yellow ring terminal to attach the large gauge wires. I don't see how it's possible to fit a ring terminal underneath the lugs. Is there a set of instructions that I'm not seeing that explains better on how to wire the contactors?

Thanks.
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LiquidFlame wrote:
Why do the instructions show 30A relays when the kit comes with 30A contactors?

Contactors and relays may be used interchangeably.

Take a look at this picture:



On the left side are two 30A relays, and on the right is a 50A contactor. Both types of devices have two connection points labelled "1", two labelled "2", and two labelled "coil". Take your 30A contactors and wire the points labelled "1", "2" and "coil" the same way as what's shown in the picture above as relays. Think of the relay or contactor as a black box. It doesn't matter which way the contactor is oriented as a contactor doesn't have polarity. You don't have to have the contactor the right way up as you do with the relay in the picture.

Quote:
I'm pretty confused on how to wire these especially when the one page document that comes with the kit says to use a yellow ring terminal to attach the large gauge wires. I don't see how it's possible to fit a ring terminal underneath the lugs.

Attach them using the contactor screws if there's a screw with a head that can be removed:



Depending on the amperage and/or the manufacturer, some contactors will instead have screws without heads where the screw is loosened and then the wire is pushed into a hole below and then the screw tightened down, crimping/holding the wire in place like this (similar to how wiring is connected to breakers in an electrical breaker panel):



I hope this helps! Good luck!

Kal

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Kevin59




Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Posts: 1047
Location: Fort Collins, CO

Drinking: Imperial Brown Ale

Working on: Oatmeal Stout, IPA


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LiquidFlame wrote:
I don't see how it's possible to fit a ring terminal underneath the lugs.


Since my contactors had the compression type screw connections, I went with 12-10 gauge male terminals as shown in this picture.



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LiquidFlame




Joined: 22 Dec 2012
Posts: 35
Location: Normal, IL


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
LiquidFlame wrote:
Why do the instructions show 30A relays when the kit comes with 30A contactors?

Contactors and relays may be used interchangeably.

Take a look at this picture:



On the left side are two 30A relays, and on the right is a 50A contactor. Both types of devices have two connection points labelled "1", two labelled "2", and two labelled "coil". Take your 30A contactors and wire the points labelled "1", "2" and "coil" the same way as what's shown in the picture above as relays. Think of the relay or contactor as a black box. It doesn't matter which way the contactor is oriented as a contactor doesn't have polarity. You don't have to have the contactor the right way up as you do with the relay in the picture.

Quote:
I'm pretty confused on how to wire these especially when the one page document that comes with the kit says to use a yellow ring terminal to attach the large gauge wires. I don't see how it's possible to fit a ring terminal underneath the lugs.

Attach them using the contactor screws if there's a screw with a head that can be removed:



Depending on the amperage and/or the manufacturer, some contactors will instead have screws without heads where the screw is loosened and then the wire is pushed into a hole below and then the screw tightened down, crimping/holding the wire in place like this (similar to how wiring is connected to breakers in an electrical breaker panel):



I hope this helps! Good luck!

Kal


Here is the type of contactor that I have.



It looks like a combination of both because it has the metal spades like the first picture, but it also has the lugs like the second picture.

So when I'm hooking up the HLT elements, I'm guessing those go to the lugs and for the HLT lights, to use the female spade connector terminals that would connect to the metal spades on the contactor?
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Kevin59




Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Posts: 1047
Location: Fort Collins, CO

Drinking: Imperial Brown Ale

Working on: Oatmeal Stout, IPA


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LiquidFlame wrote:
So when I'm hooking up the HLT elements, I'm guessing those go to the lugs and for the HLT lights, to use the female spade connector terminals that would connect to the metal spades on the contactor?


Yes, that's exactly how I wired mine (same contactors).
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LiquidFlame




Joined: 22 Dec 2012
Posts: 35
Location: Normal, IL


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok so the metal spades below the lugs, are just an extension of the lugs. As you can see I'm a noob when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Thanks.
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct. Use the large screwdown connection points for the high amperage (thick) wires and the little spades/tabs for things like lights. They're all connected together electrically. I wouldn't use little friction fit spades for high current devices (even though you do see some manufacturers doing this on some devices). I prefer something that's screwed down tight for high current and this is what you'll see in our control panel that are pre-built.

If you have any doubts please have an electrician friend check out your work too before you turn it on.

Cheers,

Kal

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LiquidFlame




Joined: 22 Dec 2012
Posts: 35
Location: Normal, IL


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Correct. Use the large screwdown connection points for the high amperage (thick) wires and the little spades/tabs for things like lights. They're all connected together electrically. I wouldn't use little friction fit spades for high current devices (even though you do see some manufacturers doing this on some devices). I prefer something that's screwed down tight for high current and this is what you'll see in our control panel that are pre-built.

If you have any doubts please have an electrician friend check out your work too before you turn it on.

Cheers,

Kal


Ok this is starting to make sense now. I plan on just screwing the lugs down on the wire, just like on the circuit breakers in my portable GFCI spa panel that I made for my setup.
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