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FAQ: Adapting for a back to back setup
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9494
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, English IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison

Working on: Kölsch


PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:39 pm    Post subject: FAQ: Adapting for a back to back setup Reply with quote


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FAQ: Adapting for a back to back setup

This control panel is available in pre-built or kit form through our control panel order page. Kits with all 240V parts are also available for countries where only 220-240V is available. Contact us at Sales@TheElectricBrewery.com for complete details.

Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!

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This addendum shows you how to adapt our standard setup in order to save time brewing back to back batches (one batch brewed immediately after another). This mostly involves changes to our standard 30A control panel build instructions to build a higher power 50A control panel, capable of running both the boil kettle and hot liquor tank at the same time.

It is important that you still read the instructions for our standard 30A control panel build to make sure nothing important is missed. Often hints, tips or caveats are given. Do not build only using the wiring diagrams and instructions below. You will most likely miss things.



FAQ

When would I want a 50A back to back control panel?

Our standard 30A control panel is capable of running one 5500W element at time. It does not have the power capacity to run both the boil kettle and hot liquor tank elements at the same time. If brewing two different batches immediately one after the another, time is saved by heating up strike water in the hot liquor tank for the second batch while the boil kettle is used to boil the first batch. With the 50A back to back control panel the single 5500W elements are replaced with 4500W elements. If you are interested in back to back batches to brew more of the same beer, it makes more sense to use a 50A control panel for 30+ gallons and brew it all at the same time.

How much beer can I brew with the 50A back to back control panel?

We recommend that the 50A back to back control panel be used for batches up to and including 20 gallons in size. While larger batches can always be brewed, you may find the the time to heat water or bring wort to boil to be overly long.

Are there any downsides to using the 50A back to back control panel?

Cost is the only downside. 50A components and wiring are more expensive than similar 30A rated items. Unless you want to consistently brew back to back batches, we recommend sticking with the original 30A control panel design.

Can I use this control panel to brew less than 20 gallons?

Yes. 20 gallons is only the recommended maximum to ensure reasonable heating times. Smaller volumes simply means faster heating times.

What changes are needed to upgrade from the standard 30A control panel to the 50A control panel for back to back batches?

Some of the 30A devices (and wiring) in the control panel are upgraded to 50A. The 30A standard dryer outlet is replaced with a 50A stove outlet. The single 3-way ELEMENT SELECT switch is replaced with two separate ELEMENT ON/OFF switches. See below for complete details on the changes required.

Are instructions available for countries that run at 220-240V?

No, not at this time. These instructions are for use in North America or other countries where the mains power is 120V. To adapt for 240V countries these instructions would have to be merged with our FAQ: Control Panel changes for 220-240V countries article. At this time that exercise is left up to the reader. Wink

Could I combine the 50A control panel for 30+ gallons and this 50A back to back control panel to brew 30+ gallons back to back?

Yes, but that would require a 100A control panel. 100A parts are considerably more expensive and harder to find as they are specialized (not standardized). Devices above 50A typically need to be hard-wired which itself introduces complexities and other concerns.

Do I still need to use a ground fault interrupter (GFI)?

Yes. A GFI is required for safety reasons. In most cases this will be done with a 50A/240V 2-pole GFI breaker in the electrical breaker panel. For more information on GFIs see STEP 1: Supply power of our Control Panel build instructions.

Do I need a larger enclosure?

No. In the back to back control panel the single 3-way ELEMENT SELECT switch is replaced with two separate ELEMENT ON/OFF switches such that the heating elements may be controlled independently. There is more than enough room in the standard 16x16x8" enclosure front panel for the additional switch. See below for a picture of the recommended layout.

Can a buy a control panel kit that includes all the parts I need already included?

Yes. We can supply control panel kits for any country including those were only 240V is available (outside North America). We can even pre-punch the enclosure for you to save work. See our control panel order page.

Can I buy this control panel completely assembled and tested?

Yes. See our control panel order page. Like our standard 30A panel the enclosure is professional cut and painted to our specifications and then wired, and tested. Pictures are available below.


PICTURES

Below are some pictures of our pre-built 50A control panel for back to back batches. Other than replacing the 3-way ELEMENT SELECT switch with two ELEMENT ON/OFF switches, from the front it appears just like the regular 30A panel:




On the bottom is a beefier 50A power input receptacle:



On the inside some of the 30A wiring and components have been upgraded to 50A and extra fuses are added to protect the 30A heating element wiring.


WIRING/PART CHANGES

The wiring diagrams below replace the standard 30A control panel wiring diagrams, where changes are required.

It is important that you still read the instructions for our standard 30A control panel build to make sure nothing important is missed. Often hints, tips or caveats are given. Do not build only using the wiring diagrams and instructions below. You will most likely miss things.

POWER CORD / SUPPLY POWER

A 50A 4-conductor stove power cord attached to a 50 Amp 125/250 Volt AC Locking Grounded California-Style connector is used as the power cord:





The stove cord has 4 conductors (2 HOTS, 1 NEUTRAL, and GROUND) and a NEMA 14-50R plug on the end. You will need to install a 240V/50A circuit in the house terminated with a NEMA 14-50R receptacle on the wall to power the control panel. The power cord plugs into this receptacle which looks like this:



This circuit should be wired to a 50 amp 2-pole GFI breaker in the electrical breaker panel using the correct size wire between the two (6 ga wire by most electrical codes). The breaker must be 50 amps and not larger in order to protect the 6 ga wiring in the control panel.

Note that stoves typically come in 40 and 50 amp varieties with 40 amp being the more common of the two. In most houses stove circuits will only be 40 amps (typically a 40 amp breaker in the panel and 8 ga wire) since home builders do whatever is cheapest. 40A is not enough. The circuit must be able to deliver 50 amps for this 50 amp control panel. The actual receptacle you plug the stove into is usually rated 50 amps even for 40 amp circuits (since the plug is the same) but the wiring in the wall and the breaker in the panel itself will only be rated to 40 amps. If you're wiring up a new stove outlet make sure to tell your electrician that you require a 50 amp circuit, not 40 amp.



POWER INPUT

The power in receptacle and relay are changed to handle the larger 50A (resistive) load. 50A relays are difficult to find so a contactor is used instead. A relay and contactor (the terms are often used interchangeably) work the same way but contactors are generally rated for higher power. Note that a contactor rated for 40A inductive load (as presented by compressors in air conditioners or similar) is able to drive a 50A resistive load as presented by our heating elements. So if you find a 40A "inductive" contactor it's likely ok to use at 50A "resistive". Confirm that the model you intend on ordering can support 50A "resistive". Some of the 10 gauge wire is replaced with 6 gauge to handle the 50A load. Any ring terminals or connectors (if used) for connecting the 6 ga wire must also be rated for at least 50 amps.

Part changes:

(Qty: 1) 2 pole 50A (resistive) 240VAC contactor with 120V coil
(Qty: 1) 50 Amp 125/250 Volt AC Locking Grounded California-Style receptacle
(< 1 foot) Black 6 gauge type T90/THWN/THHN wire

Wiring diagram (changes are shown in yellow):




GROUND

The ground wire from the power input receptacle is increased from 10 to 6 gauge. To allow enough room on the enclosure ground post for all these ground wires we recommend using a 10 terminal ground bar on the back plate. Make sure to connect the door and enclosure ground posts to the ground bar as well. Any ring terminals or connectors (if used) for connecting the 6 ga wire must also be rated for at least 50 amps.

Part changes:

(Qty: 1) 10 terminal 50A ground bar (optional)
(~2 feet) Green 6 gauge type T90/THWN/THHN wire

Wiring diagram (changes are shown in yellow):




VOLT AND AMP METERS

There are no changes to the volt and amp meter wiring.




PUMPS

There are no changes to the pump wiring.





PID CONTROLLERS

There are no changes to the PID controller wiring.





TIMER AND ALARMS

There are no changes to the timer and alarm wiring.





HEATING ELEMENTS

The 3-way ELEMENT SELECT switch is replaced with separate Boil Element and Hot Liquor Tank Element on/off switches so that the elements can be controlled independently. Some of the 10 gauge wire is replaced with 6 gauge to handle the 50A load. 30A fuses are added to protect the 30A element receptacles and wiring. Why? On the standard 30A control panel the 30A circuit breaker in the electrical panel wall protects the 10 ga wiring so additional fuses are not required. With this 50A panel the 50A circuit breaker in the electrical panel protects the 6ga wiring but we now need to add protection for the smaller 10ga wiring between the contactors and the kettles (both inside the panel and out). Any ring terminals or connectors (if used) for connecting the 6 ga wire must also be rated for at least 50 amps.

Part changes:

(~2 feet) Black 6 gauge type T90/THWN/THHN wire
(~2 feet) Red 6 gauge type T90/THWN/THHN wire
(Qty: 4) 30A 250V fast blow fiber fuse
(Qty: 2) 30A 250V 2-pole fuse holder
(Qty: 2) 2 position maintained selector switch, 1 normally open (NO) contactor, 10A/240VAC

Wiring diagram (changes are shown in yellow):


Note: With some relay/contactor brands you may find it difficult to fit 6 gauge and 10 gauge red wires in the same screw hole at the top input #2 on the HLT relay/contactor. Do not under any circumstances trim back strands of the wires to make them fit! Instead, use a power distribution block. Our control panel kits include this extra part (when required). Simply attach the large 6 ga wire from the POWER IN CONTACTOR into the big end of distribution block and then two 10 ga wires out the other end that lead to the BOIL and HLT relays/contactors.



SAFE START INTERLOCK

The power in receptacle and relay were changed to handle the larger 50A load as described previously. The 3-way ELEMENT SELECT switch is replaced with separate Boil Element and Hot Liquor Tank Element on/off switches.

Please make sure to refer to the standard safe start interlock instructions before wiring the diagram below as some special changes may be required.

The POWER KEY switch was previously wired directly to the POWER IN RELAY coil (per the POWER INPUT wiring diagram above). This wire must be removed otherwise the interlock feature will be bypassed and the control panel will power up regardless of how the three other switches are set.

Previously the WORT PUMP and WATER PUMP switches only had their normally open (NO) contactor wired up (per the PUMPS wiring diagram above). We are now adding a normally closed (NC) contactor beside the existing contactor. Only the new wiring is shown here. The existing wiring does not change.

Wiring diagram (changes are shown in yellow):



Nothing else in the control panel changes since the rest is all low current 120V. How the panel operates remains identical. You may now simply run both heating elements at once.

Once completed, make sure to follow our control panel setup instructions.

Interested in building your own? See our control panel order page for kit pricing.

Cheers,

Kal


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Last edited by kal on Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:50 pm; edited 43 times in total
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huaco



Joined: 05 Apr 2012
Posts: 1508
Location: Burleson Texas


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm really happy with my decision to build a back to back brewery especially because I brew with Keggles. I am able to burn both elements simultaneously to heat strike water in the Boil Kettle (BK) and Hot Liquor in the Hot Liquor Tank (HLT). I transfer over as much strike water as I need without having to worry about exposing the top of the HERMS coil in the HLT. The only time my HLT fluid level drops below the top of the HERMS coil is when i am sparging. By this point I am not circulating through the HERMS coil.
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BeerguyNC61



Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 21
Location: North Carolina


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject: Pricing? Reply with quote

Kal
Any pricing yet on the new pre-built 50A panel?

Thanks
Stephen
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9494
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, English IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison

Working on: Kölsch


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Pricing? Reply with quote

BeerguyNC61 wrote:
Any pricing yet on the new pre-built 50A panel?

At this time, no. When information is available it will be announced. The best way to be notified is to sign up for our newsletter, facebook page, or twitter feed.

Kal

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BeerguyNC61



Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 21
Location: North Carolina


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Already signed up and facebook page.

Thanks for the info!
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RonPaul



Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject: Awesome, now if I only had instructions for using a BCS... Reply with quote

This is great info... now if I only had instructions for how to install/wire a BCS instead of the PIDs, I'd be all set. Kal has good reasons for choosing PIDs over the BCS, but I would still like to go the BCS route. I wonder if there are others who would benefit from instructions for a build like this? Anyone?
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nodabs



Joined: 04 Sep 2012
Posts: 1



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Awesome, now if I only had instructions for using a BCS. Reply with quote

I have been waiting on building my panel because I haven't figured out how to lay everything out with the BCS yet. I know Kal prefers the PIDs, but his documentation is just fantastic. If someone has documentation even remotely close to the level of Kal's and uses the BCS I could get started right away! Thumbs Up

RonPaul wrote:
This is great info... now if I only had instructions for how to install/wire a BCS instead of the PIDs, I'd be all set. Kal has good reasons for choosing PIDs over the BCS, but I would still like to go the BCS route. I wonder if there are others who would benefit from instructions for a build like this? Anyone?
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grupe



Joined: 03 May 2012
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just some feedback: I would highly suggest finding space for a second timer since you can now mash and boil at the same time. This is how ours ended up looking. It should really have a second reset push button but pushing the reset button on the timers isn't that big of deal.

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9494
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, English IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison

Working on: Kölsch


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops!

I'm surprised nobody caught this but in my original diagrams above I had incorrectly oversized both SSRs (80A not required as 40A is adequate), the BOIL & HLT contactors (50A contactors not required as 30A relays are adequate), and some of the wiring (too much 6ga when 10ga was adequate). These changes are not required as we do not drive two elements per kettle.

There was no harm in oversizing as I did, it just wasn't needed.

The diagrams and instructions in the first post of this thread have now been updated. Make sure to refresh your browsers just in case.

Sorry for the confusion! The 50A back to back kits we've sent out to customers contained the correct parts. This was me just not paying close enough attention when drawing up the diagrams (carry-overs from the wiring diagrams for the 50A control panel for 30+ gallons). If anyone did purchase larger SSRs or contactors elsewhere, please use them. There's no benefit to replacing them with lower current versions.

Sorry everyone!

Kal

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huaco



Joined: 05 Apr 2012
Posts: 1508
Location: Burleson Texas


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed the SSR discrepancy but failed to double check against my panel to verify prior to asking you about it...
It is very easy to have things slip by you when modifying from other documents. been guilty of that myself!
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9494
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, English IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison

Working on: Kölsch


PostLink    Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOVEMBER 2012 UPDATE:

Don't want to build it yourself? This control panel is now available in pre-built or kit form through our control panel order page.

They are carefully hand built in the USA on a first come, first served basis.

Kal

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milldoggy



Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 570
Location: Pottstown, PA


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal,Mike, Inno,
Have you thought about making a combo 50 amp panel, where maybe a 3 way selector is used for to control which elements are on, so the panel could be a backto back or a 30+ gallon? Maybe it would take to many contractors and ssr's, but the would be ultimate versitilty.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9494
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, English IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison

Working on: Kölsch


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milldoggy wrote:
Kal,Mike, Inno,
Have you thought about making a combo 50 amp panel, where maybe a 3 way selector is used for to control which elements are on, so the panel could be a backto back or a 30+ gallon? Maybe it would take to many contractors and ssr's, but the would be ultimate versitilty.

I don't see how that could be done in a way that would be both easy to understand and safe to use. You'd need to have switch interlocking designed in somehow that allows you to choose which of the two elements could be on at once: Either 2 in the same pot (30+ gallon setup) or one in either pot (back to back). Safety features would have to be built in that didn't allow more than 2 to be on at once. Right now the two elements in the same pot are wired together. This would have to be separated withe extra switching.

I think it would be extremely confusing to use in operation using manual switches. It would have to be computerized somehow. Even then I think it would be confusing. You'd have to label the element receptacles correctly to show which was the 'dominant' one that would always be on first (per pot).

At the end of the day I don't think there's much market for it. You're the first person to ask.

I find that most who who want 30+ gallons setups who are also interested in back to back want to do 30+ gallons back to back, meaning all 4 elements running at once (which would require a 100A panel).

Those that brew 20 gallons or less and want to brew back to back haven't shown interest in larger batches. I would say the interest in 30+ gallon control panels is about 10-20 times larger than interest in 20 gallonr or less back to back control panels. Very few are interested in back to back.

Kal

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rustybeer



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal
Just wondering why you did replace the element light with a lighted switch. You could have a lighted switch for both elements, and remove the center element selector switch.

Also has any one figured out the time savings 30 amp vs 50 amp brewing single batches , I imagine double batching would be even greater time saving.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9494
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, English IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison

Working on: Kölsch


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rustybeer wrote:
Kal
Just wondering why you did replace the element light with a lighted switch. You could have a lighted switch for both elements, and remove the center element selector switch.

I think you meant to ask why I didn't replace the element swiches and lights with lighted switches? Yes, the two could be combined but we don't do that for anything else on the panel. So separate lights/switches were kept for a consistent look and feel. If you did this for the element on/off switches you should also do this for the power on/off switch and both pump switches.

I'm also not a fan of switches with integrated lights. I find they look cheap/plastic-y, but that's just me. This is why my original panel does not use them. I did look into them in ~2008 when I designed my original 30A panel.

Quote:
Also has any one figured out the time savings 30 amp vs 50 amp brewing single batches , I imagine double batching would be even greater time saving.

I have not heard of anyone having quoted actual numbers.
It would also depend on your brewing process, the beer you're making, grist size, and other many factors. There's no "one number" that can be quoted.

Kal

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rustybeer



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just like the symmetricalness of the 30 amp panel with the lights above the PID’s , and the switches aligned. ( just my opinion or is it how my eyes gravitate when I look for the PID name to the switch I need to turn on.)

Would be nice just to get some general comparisons # differences on some simple brews if anyone has gravitated to a 50 amp system. Reason for asking is I’m still hung up on if I want to spend the extra money to run 50 amps to the brew system. I still have about 2 month before I’m ready to brew. I know with a single 5500 watt element it takes 1.83 seconds to do 1 °F change on 1 gallon of water, and with dual 4500 watt elements it takes 1.1 seconds to do 1°F change on 1 gallon. Figuring 20 gallons of water changing the temperature from 70°F to 160°F ( two 4500 watt elements would take 33 minutes) ( one 5500 watt element would take 55 minutes) so just on bring water up to temperature ( averaging) you are saving 22 minutes
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huaco



Joined: 05 Apr 2012
Posts: 1508
Location: Burleson Texas


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a picture of my finished 50A back-to-back panel. I purchased the kit right after they started offering it. This is with a 16x20x8 enclosure. I have not brewed a back to back batch yet. However, since I have 3 keggles I am limited on my HLT head space and I have been using my boil kettle to heat all my strike water. This leaves the entire HLT full and the HERMS coil completely covered until I enter the sparge phase of the brew day.


Control Panel Finished and Powered.jpg
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16x20 enclosure 50A back-to-back kit custom layout.
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Control Panel Finished and Powered.jpg


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huaco



Joined: 05 Apr 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boy... that was a really bad picture. Here is another one.
You will notice I left the switch and light out above the mash. I also left a spot open on my back plate in case I ever wanted to change over to an electric RIMS system. (don't think I ever will though) This also serves as a reminder that there is no direct heating in the MLT for those not familiar with the system.



Brewery Test Run CP.jpg
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Test run on new control panel back in early August '12.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9494
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, English IPA, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter, Saison

Working on: Kölsch


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rustybeer wrote:
I just like the symmetricalness of the 30 amp panel with the lights above the PID’s , and the switches aligned. ( just my opinion or is it how my eyes gravitate when I look for the PID name to the switch I need to turn on.)

Sure, I can see that. Once of the benefits of the free build instructions here is that people can taylor them to build their panels any way they like.

Quote:
Reason for asking is I’m still hung up on if I want to spend the extra money to run 50 amps to the brew system.

If you haven't pulled any wire yet you might as well use #6 to allow for 50A instead of #10 for 30A. The cost difference is minor. This is what I did for my new brew room. Even though I don't think I ever want to brew larger batches or do back to back batches a lot, you just never know. I have a 30A breaker and a standard 30A dryer outlet, but the wiring in the walls is all #6 "just in case". If I ever decide to build a 50A control panel, switching the breaker and wall receptacle is be easy.

Quote:
Figuring 20 gallons of water changing the temperature from 70°F to 160°F ( two 4500 watt elements would take 33 minutes) ( one 5500 watt element would take 55 minutes) so just on bring water up to temperature ( averaging) you are saving 22 minutes


Let's assume your 20 gallons of water (a 10 gallon batch). Just thinking off the top of my head here, the following things will go faster:

- Heat strike water (save ~20 minutes)
- Heat mash to mashout (save 5-10 minutes). The HLT will get to 168 faster but the mash still needs to follow.
- Bring wort to boil (save 15-20 minutes).

So I think you'd probably save about 40-50 minutes on a brew day that's probably 5-8 hours long by using a 50A (9000W) panel instead of a 30A (5500W) panel. It's not a huge percentage in time savings IMHO. If you're extremely time limited you'd probably be better off looking at other pllaces where you could save time. For example you could make up this time on a regular 30A setup by mashing shorter and sparging faster with what would be a fairly minor drop in efficiency. Probably the equivalent of a few dollars more grain. Of course, doing both will save you even more time...

I think it really depends on how you brew and what time you have. I don't like to rush as I want to enjoy it and not feel like I need to get done in a certain time frame since this is a hobby for me. Everyone will have different needs.

If you're not time limited remember too that you don't have to actually "do" anything during these longer periods. I'm never standing there staring at the equipment and waiting for it. Other than a few key time during the brewing process, I'm usually off somewhere else doing other non brewing related things (like posting here Wink).

Kal

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rustybeer



Joined: 17 Apr 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the layout huaco , that is one tall panel.
Thanks for the # crunching kal
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