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Kal's basement Brewery/Bar/Home Theatre build 2.0
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VaWineSnob



Joined: 14 Jun 2011
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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I own Sub-Zero and Miele appliances, and couldn't be happier with the quality of the products. I have this sub-zero wine cooler built into the kitchen island http://www.subzero-wolf.com/wine-cooler/wine-cellar. You can see it featured at this site: http://www.atticmag.com/2008/11/ivette%e2%80%99s-cherry-counter-kitchen/ The cooler is extremely quiet.

I will be using the Sub-Zero beverage cooler when I install my basement bar, hopefully sometime in the next year or two.

In my opinion, based on no first hand knowledge or experience, U-Line should go in the "somewhat regular" category. I don't know where that prejudice comes from, or why I feel that way.
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rvklein



Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 20



PostLink    Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Correct. I wouldn't want a COMMERCIAL beverage center. They tend to be loud since noise is not an issue. A high end consumer model meant for residential (not commercial) use should be ok however I'd think. Ones from Perlick, Sub Zero, Dacor, Miele, Uline, and True should be ok. Some of these companies also make commercial grade stuff where keeping noise low isn't the concern. I think TRUE makes both (for example).

Kal


Kal, I have a pair of 3 Zone Kitchen Aids (Kitchenaid KBCS24RSBS Freestanding or Built-In Architect Series II). They are ULTRA quiet. It's been 5 years now and I can't be happier with them.

1 Zone for beverages
1 Zone for whites
1 Zone for reds
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9985
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VaWineSnob wrote:
I will be using the Sub-Zero beverage cooler when I install my basement bar, hopefully sometime in the next year or two.

The UC-24BG seen here?: http://www.subzero-wolf.com/counter-refrigerator/beverage-center

Question for you: Are the lights in the wine coolers on all the time? I figure the UC-24BG will work the same way (the manual doesn't say much other than it has a Sabbath mode where the light can be disabled completely).

I don't really want something with a glass door and a light that's on all the time because of the home theater.

Kal

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VaWineSnob



Joined: 14 Jun 2011
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wine cooler light is user selectable to be on all the time, on when the door is open, or off all the time. I'm not sure if the beverage center is the same.

We also have a Sub-Zero drawer refrigerator in our kitchen (it's to the left of the dishwasher in the pics on the atticmag site linked above): http://www.subzero-wolf.com/counter-refrigerator/under-counter-refrigerator-drawers I am considering using in the basement bar as a drink cooler. Again, very quiet. Drinks can be loaded in laying flat. I did this for our annual Toys-for-Tots collection party one year, worked great and held a lot of canned drinks. My concern is bottled drinks don't typically lay flat very well, but they do typically have caps that identify the contents so you can put them in standing.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9985
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rvklein wrote:
kal wrote:
Correct. I wouldn't want a COMMERCIAL beverage center. They tend to be loud since noise is not an issue. A high end consumer model meant for residential (not commercial) use should be ok however I'd think. Ones from Perlick, Sub Zero, Dacor, Miele, Uline, and True should be ok. Some of these companies also make commercial grade stuff where keeping noise low isn't the concern. I think TRUE makes both (for example).

Kal


Kal, I have a pair of 3 Zone Kitchen Aids (Kitchenaid KBCS24RSBS Freestanding or Built-In Architect Series II). They are ULTRA quiet. It's been 5 years now and I can't be happier with them.

1 Zone for beverages
1 Zone for whites
1 Zone for reds

Thanks, though I don't really need something with 3 zones and would prefer only one or at most 2 shelves for wine. It's mostly for other drinks.

Kal

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My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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rockinmarty



Joined: 01 Jan 2012
Posts: 15
Location: st-hubert, Qc


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

can't wait to see it completed. I know that our master will not disappoint us Smile
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Ridebreck



Joined: 01 Feb 2011
Posts: 3
Location: Colorado Springs, CO


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Kal, where does the digital projector go?

<ducking>
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KES



Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 473
Location: Iowa


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh! Ridebreck! Shocked No digital projector in kal's theatre. That's would be heresy! Wink
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9985
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the first post:

kal wrote:
The Home Theater will not be changing much. I'll be using mostly the same equipment (for now) other than the projector. It'll likely be a JVC RS45 or RS55 (yes, digital - gulp!) with a 17'9" throw to put it over the second row of seats. Still deciding between the two. We'll see how much money I have left at the end of all this.


Digital's come a long way... I'm ok with installing one now. 5-8 years ago? Not so much.

Kal

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My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ridebreck



Joined: 01 Feb 2011
Posts: 3
Location: Colorado Springs, CO


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose that's what I get for not reading. So what's to become of the ol' Barco?
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9985
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At this point, I don't know.

Kal

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KES



Joined: 13 May 2011
Posts: 473
Location: Iowa


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stand corrected! Is Curt still talking to you? Just joking. Thumbs Up
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benoitbo



Joined: 07 Dec 2011
Posts: 62
Location: Richmond, Qc


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kal,

Do you have more details on how you will be building the Kegerator to hold your 8 kegs, 2 gas tank, Glycol Tank and pump? I`m really interrested in cloning that as well. If you document a full guide like the brewery, I`m def. going to chip in to buy that guide.

(Don`t botter documenting the Fermenting Chamber, I`m almost done Razz )

Cheers

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Ben Bouchard

Control Panel Ready, Kettles Ready, Pumps Ready. First Dry Run. Working on the Hood and fermentation Chamber.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9985
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ben,

Yes, I plan on providing full details and pictures. It's quite straight forward and worked well for ~7 years at my old house.

Kal

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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9985
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Late last week the plumber came and re-did the plumbing rough-in for the bathroom.

The house already had a plumbing rough-in installed by the builder but as is usually the case, things didn't exactly work out for what we wanted done: The bathroom will be larger with a non-standard shower and we're adding a urinal. So everything had to be dug up and moved. The plumber came last week and re-did the rough-in. Today the city inspector came to review and gave his thumbs up. (We pulled permits for all this work so everything is being done by the book and being inspected at each stage).



Now that we have a signed sheet from the inspector for the plumbing, tomorrow concrete can be poured.

Insulation removal has started:



The builder pre-insulates with R12 fiberglass to about a foot from the floor, but we're going to be going with closed cell spray foam. While we could have simply drywalled over the existing insulation and vapour barrier, we chose to go with spray foam for the following reasons:
  • It's considerably more efficient (insulates better/lower heating costs).
  • Unlike loose fiberglass insulation it completely seals the foundation to any air or moisture penetration. This is especially important in the rim joist areas (the area above the concrete foundation but below the first floor). We've already had moisture built-up and ice in those areas over the last winter, partially due to poor sealing from the outside between the sill plate and rim joists (this was sealed up correctly a couple of months ago). Applying spray foam to the inside of the rim joists should (hopefully) stop it completely as it'll create an airtight seal.
  • It will be sprayed right to the floor so it'll also help seal the crack between the foundation wall and floor for radon gas mitigation.
  • Most of the vapour barrier/insulation needs to be removed anyway for the electrical wiring to be installed.
  • Some of the framing needs to be redone to allow for drywall installation.
Some of this framing fixing up has started as well. There are many bent studs or studs that are not lined up correctly to allow for drywall installation. The basement was originally studded on 24" centers to simply allow for easy installation of fiberglass insulation, not for drywall installation.

You'll see in the picture below that 2x3's are being installed to bring the wall out a bit to be in line with the support posts. The support posts are farther into the room than the original framing which doesn't allow for drywall installation:



Most of the sub-floor installation has been completed. Plywood (lighter colour floor) installed where tile will be used in the bar area as the tile glue sticks better, OSB (darker colour floor) where carpet will be used:



Tomorrow we start moving ducts. The HVAC is being completely redone as in many places it drops too low or runs through the middle of the room. Here's a shot from about the second row of Home Theater seating towards the screen wall:



The supply duct will be capped before the large drop under the I-beam and re-routed around the other side of the stairs to the rest of the basement. The cold air return will be moved all the way to the right of the room, creating even sized bulkheads on either side of the home theater ceiling to give it a nice symmetrical look. The duct rework should take about 3 days.

The little area with the door to the left will also be completely removed eventually. They're keeping it in place for now to try and keep the noise and dust from the rest of the house.

In more exciting news: I got news that my new tap tower, drip tray, and other draft beer items should ship from Pennsylvania tomorrow.

Kal

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My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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cscade



Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 140
Location: Wooster, OH


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The spray foam (urethane) you're planning to install is the right way to go. When I was still in construction, I was a strong advocate of Structural Insulated Panels (ex. http://www.winterpanel.com/) for exterior skin on timber frame structures, and the foam you're referring to is the same thing. As long as all your utilities are in place ahead of time and you're working with a modern exterior-sealed concrete foundation, there are really no downsides.
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milldoggy



Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 570
Location: Pottstown, PA


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice Kal. I am about to move and need to set up my basement brewery. I think I might steel some of your ideas. I like to glass windows that look into the brewery. That is really nice.

Is you sewer above grade or below you foundation? If you are tiling the brewery, why not tile right on the concrete?
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9985
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milldoggy wrote:
Is you sewer above grade or below you foundation?

Sewer is below foundation.

Quote:
If you are tiling the brewery, why not tile right on the concrete?

For the brewery we are tiling right on the concrete, mostly due to the drain (if I'm not mistaken). In the bar, bathroom, and sauna we're installing platon & plywood first and tiling on that. And by "we" I mean everyone but me. Wink

Kal

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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9985
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So today was a busy day with people coming and going... we had up to 7 people working away in the basement today. Some redoing the duct work, others pouring new concrete.

I understand now where "tin bangers" (sheet metal workers who do HVAC work) get their name. It's noisy!

Some of the tin that is yet to be installed:



The supply duct coming through the home theater / lounge / bar / brewery was completely removed and the end capped, and right side cold air return duct has been removed as it's going to be moved all the way to the right wall:







The lounge / bar / brewery will instead be supplied by a new duct coming around the other side above the DVD storage / sauna / bathroom:



You can see the start of the supply duct coming out of the furnace stack in the left of the picture above. It'll continue all the way to the right and then down the little hallway/opening.

The major reason for redoing all this duct work is eliminate the previously large 4 x 4 foot drop below an I-beam which falls exactly where the home theater riser step falls. Had we tried to keep it as is, once framed this 4x4 foot dropped ceiling would have resulted in a 6.5 foot ceiling height (that's after paying for an extra foot of basement ceiling height to have almost 9' in most places in the basement). Remove another foot for the 12" riser and you have a lot of bumped heads when anyone steps up to the second row of home theater seats.

Builders are careful to say that you're "paying for an extra foot of ceiling height", not that you're "paying for 9' ceilings". Rightfully so. There's no way to guarantee 9 feet everywhere of course. There was simply no way to have all this duct reworked ahead of the build as you're buying a model that's already been determined.

Curious what it would have looked like if we left it as is and framed it? Here are a few pictures from the builder's model home where they did exactly that:





I find that big 4x4 foot square drop in the middle of the room looks really odd. Remove an extra foot for a home theater riser and it just will not work. (Never mind that they only have one beer on tap in the kegerator). Smile

The secondary reason to redo the ducts is to create even/cohesive bulkheads and not make it look like someone just drywalled over the mess that was there first like you see in the builder model home pictures above.

In our case we're trying to even out things and make turn ducts 'architectural features' that frame the room instead of those weird lumps that appear all over the ceilings in most basements. To the eye it should appear that bulkheads exist because they add something to the room, not because they were created to hide duct-work.

Plumbing drain stacks present these same sorts of problems too - we have one that is in line with the first row of home theater seats that will end up being moved such that it's hidden in the wall framing (breaking concrete/redoing plumbing).

I was really happy to see a lot of this tin work go as smoothly as it did. At least it appeared to go smoothly. I was worried that there was going to be a lot of 'gotchas' that weren't obvious when the work was first estimated.

That said, there's still at least a day and a half a duct work to go ...

The bathroom plumbing was also filled with concrete today:



A form was used on the right where the shower is to go.

Kal

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wubears71



Joined: 14 Mar 2012
Posts: 278
Location: Webster Groves, MO

Drinking: Keg 1- Hefenweizen, Keg 2- Vanilla Scotch Porter, Keg 3-Munich Helles

Working on: Stinky IPA


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good idea on moving the duct work. I know I would have regretted not doing it even years after the completion. 1 beer? WTF?
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