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Kal's basement Brewery/Bar/Home Theatre build 2.0
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Ben58



Joined: 14 Aug 2011
Posts: 409
Location: Hamilton, Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Ah, saunas. I remember when I was a lot younger, sitting in a sauna, working up a huge sweat, then dashing outdoors and throwing yourself into a snow bank! Immediately race back in and sweat some more. Must be my Euorpean heritage as well. Thumbs Up
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huaco



Joined: 05 Apr 2012
Posts: 1508
Location: Burleson Texas


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, 200*F is FREAKIN' HOT! I have experienced many-a Texas Summer and with the humidity added to that... holy smokes. If you like heat that much you just need to move down here to Texas! I am just nearly speechless at the thought of intentionally exposing oneself to temps in that range.

Sure does look sweet though.
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wubears71



Joined: 14 Mar 2012
Posts: 278
Location: Webster Groves, MO

Drinking: Keg 1- Hefenweizen, Keg 2- Vanilla Scotch Porter, Keg 3-Munich Helles

Working on: Stinky IPA


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben58 wrote:
Ah, saunas. I remember when I was a lot younger, sitting in a sauna, working up a huge sweat, then dashing outdoors and throwing yourself into a snow bank! Immediately race back in and sweat some more. Must be my Euorpean heritage as well. Thumbs Up


I liked seeing the European Women do that naked at night after a long day of skiing!

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

huaco wrote:
Kal, 200*F is FREAKIN' HOT! I have experienced many-a Texas Summer and with the humidity added to that... holy smokes. If you like heat that much you just need to move down here to Texas! I am just nearly speechless at the thought of intentionally exposing oneself to temps in that range.

Sure does look sweet though.

A sauna at that temp would very very dry. Nothing like Texas with high humidity.

Kal

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huaco



Joined: 05 Apr 2012
Posts: 1508
Location: Burleson Texas


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
huaco wrote:
Kal, 200*F is FREAKIN' HOT! I have experienced many-a Texas Summer and with the humidity added to that... holy smokes. If you like heat that much you just need to move down here to Texas! I am just nearly speechless at the thought of intentionally exposing oneself to temps in that range.

Sure does look sweet though.

A sauna at that temp would very very dry. Nothing like Texas with high humidity.

Kal


At 200*F, is a towel enough to keep the wood from branding you? Seriously... I never knew some saunas even approached this temp.
This is actually fascinating the more I think about it. I would be game to trying it some time, but I would probably be wise to "work" my way up to that experience...
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foomench



Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 710
Location: Longmont, CO

Drinking: Pinot barrel aged quad

Working on: Flanders oude bruin in barrel, Flanders red fermenting to refill the barrel


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you can always use the sauna for mashing giant beers with those temperatures.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

foomench wrote:
Well, you can always use the sauna for mashing giant beers with those temperatures.

Interesting idea!

The sauna is 5 x 7 x 6.8 feet = 239 cubic feet or enough space for 1787 US gallons.

I can do roughly 45 lbs of grain in my 20 gallon MLT, so that sauna filled the brim would give me room to mash about 4021 lbs of grain, which, at 95% efficiency would give me 2665 gallons of beer.

Cool. That's a pretty big batch. I'd need a bigger mash paddle though.

Kal

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VaWineSnob



Joined: 14 Jun 2011
Posts: 86



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
huaco wrote:
Kal, 200*F is FREAKIN' HOT! I have experienced many-a Texas Summer and with the humidity added to that... holy smokes. If you like heat that much you just need to move down here to Texas! I am just nearly speechless at the thought of intentionally exposing oneself to temps in that range.

Sure does look sweet though.

A sauna at that temp would very very dry. Nothing like Texas with high humidity.

Kal


It's a "dry heat"! Does that mean Canadian winters are not bad because they are dry cold?

Just kidding. I love saunas.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was looking around and saw some really nice/funky/modern saunas over at http://www.saunavision.fi/

Some examples:



I'd love to have a view like this! (Not easy to do in a basement... ):



Some of these have to be pretty expensive to build because of all the attention to detail, like the 100's of pinlights in the ceiling.

Like this one:



More pictures here: http://www.saunavision.fi/galleria/

Kal

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18DPA



Joined: 14 Nov 2011
Posts: 135
Location: Kuwait


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

huaco wrote:
kal wrote:
huaco wrote:
Kal, 200*F is FREAKIN' HOT! I have experienced many-a Texas Summer and with the humidity added to that... holy smokes. If you like heat that much you just need to move down here to Texas! I am just nearly speechless at the thought of intentionally exposing oneself to temps in that range.

Sure does look sweet though.

A sauna at that temp would very very dry. Nothing like Texas with high humidity.

Kal


At 200*F, is a towel enough to keep the wood from branding you? Seriously... I never knew some saunas even approached this temp.
This is actually fascinating the more I think about it. I would be game to trying it some time, but I would probably be wise to "work" my way up to that experience...


+2 Huaco!!

Its been around 120 over here and it simply hurts to go outside. I can't imagine over 200? It must work or else they wouldn't be that popular.

I can't wait to step off the plane in 2 weeks back into "Texas heat" and feel comfortable.

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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember too that the purpose of a sauna is to sweat, and you shouldn't stay in the sauna long. 20-30 mins. It's not supposed to be "comfortable".

You can't compare it to regular weather we experience and spend many hours in.

Very true however that most in North America don't understand/know about saunas. They're not overly popular over here.

Kal

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huaco



Joined: 05 Apr 2012
Posts: 1508
Location: Burleson Texas


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

18DPA wrote:
+2 Huaco!!

Its been around 120 over here and it simply hurts to go outside. I can't imagine over 200? It must work or else they wouldn't be that popular.

I can't wait to step off the plane in 2 weeks back into "Texas heat" and feel comfortable.


I bet you will be glad to be back State-Side!!! PM me when you get back. I may be able to come help you build some of your brewery one weekend. you are just a few hours down 281 from me.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So plumbing rough-in is now all done too.

Tomorrow we get sprayfoamed. We're using Heatlok Soya by Demiliec (also sold under the Polarfoam name... different distributor).

All of the existing standard fiberglass insulation has already been removed. We're doing R12 on the outside foundation walls (2" thick) and R20+ in the headers/rim joists (4" thick).

Fiberglass insulation will be used in the ceilings and inner walls as that's the best solution for sound.

The sprayfoam we're using is supposedly very "green" stuff which I like. To quote one site that talked about it:

Quote:
Heatlok-Soya takes the prize for hitting the most eco-buttons in its story. It is a polyurethane foam system made out of recycled plastic (a barrel of Heatlok-soya contains 1000 plastic bottles) and soya oil. it is zero ozone depletion and is even coloured green. The manufacturer, Demilec, "is the first Canadian manufacturer of Spray Polyurethane Foam to meet the requirements of the Montreal Protocol. Aside from having risen to the challenge before the deadline, DEMILEC has developed the expertise to embrace the ecological turn (the sustainable development approach) by introducing recycled plastics, renewable natural oils, and water, all while maintaining the high quality and performance of its foam systems." Their brochure, however, is on very glossy and heavy paper.


So why sprayfoam? It's considerably better at retaining heat and provides a better air and moisture barrier in the places it's needed (like the headers/rim joists where condensation can form). We also absolutely require it in some places as, due ot the design, we have plumbing (both supply and drain) running inside the 2x4" framing on exterior walls. Code around here says you need at least R12 between this and the outside wall to avoid freezing (it is Canada after all), and you don't have enough depth to do that with the standard pink stuff. It would have to be too thick. We were also required to remove the vapour barrier and existing pink fiberglass stuff to do wiring, so it had to come out anyway. It'll get re-used in the ceilings.

So why not sprayfoam? The only reason is that it's more expensive.

The R-rating of sprayfoam is confusing. When researching this product seemed to be either R6 or R7.4 per inch. Then I read this:

Quote:
Sprayfoam and R value: According to Rich Krechowicz of Callrich Eco Services, who is a Heatlok installer, only the Demiliec soya insulation product is a “type 2″ sprayfoam with a long term R value of 6. As he explained to me, there are two types of sprayfoam, type 1 and type 2. When measuring R value for sprayfoams, it is measured in three stages : initial (just after it’s sprayed), aged, (after 180 days) and long-term (after six months). In the US, sprayfoam manufacturers are allowed to use the aged R value term when advertising a sprayfoam, in Canada, they must use the long-term number, so if you’re doing your research and wondering why the same product has two different R values, it might be that you’re looking at American and Canadian sites. All other sprayfoams fall into the type 1 category with a long-term R value of 5.


Drywall isn't far behind... I'll take some pictures over the weekend of our new green walls.

Kal

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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sprayfoam has now been completed. The entire outside wall was sprayed to about 2" thick:



About 4" thick in the rim joists (the area above the foundation, in-between the joists):



We had some condensation in the rim joists (headers) over the winter so I'm glad to get this completely sealed up now so
that it won't happen again. This is fairly common when the rim joists are only covered with standard fiberglass insulation
and vapour barrier. The vapour barrier is never tight, allowing warm air to flow up against the cold rim joists, causing
condensation. Sprayfoam completely seals everything from air and water penetration (no vapour barrier needed).

We did the unfinished/storage area as well:



This area will be drywalled as well, but just rough (no mudding/taping/sanding). Sprayfoam needs to be covered with
something to meet fire rating. Gysum drywall is fine in most places. In unfinished areas with exposed rim joists it'll be
covered with Roxul mineral fiber insulation as it's a fire retardant.

The one thing about sprayfoam: Make sure to double check that you don't forget any wiring before spraying!

Sprayfoam generates a lot of heat as it cures so I still need to go through and test all the smaller wires (security system,
phone, cable, and some CAT5/6 I installed) to make sure it all works. While it's rare, there have been cases where the
heat melts the wiring. Any issues have to be fixed before drywall goes up.

I had also previously installed Carlon single gang low voltage brackets and pulled speaker wires to the 2 rear and 2 side channel speakers:



Two sets of 12 ga in-wall rated speaker wires from Home Depot were used. Two sets are pulled as the speakers I use
allow for bi-wiring. This is where the tweeter and woofer in the speaker are separated. The two runs are joined at the
amplifier end so it's not 'bi-amped' but only 'bi-wired'. It's supposed to provide for better sound quality but this is
definitely something that falls into the laws of diminishing returns department. It's reasonably cheap to do in the grand
scheme of things. If nothing else it gives you a backup wire, just in case.

The box for the linear fireplace had also been completed:



The fireplace sits on the left side. The wall above/below the box will be finished in some sort of wood. Not 100% sure
exactly what yet.

A view standing roughly where the barstools will go, looking through the window between the bar and the brewery:



You can see that the bulkhead on the back wall were the hood vent will eventually hang by threaded rod. The hood was
installed temperarily to get the height and positioning right and then put away. The hood exhaust fan has been installed
and wrapped in plastic. The make-up air and exhaust ducts have not been installed yet but the external vents have
already been installed.

To get access to install the hood to the threaded (and if ever the fan and other ductwork needs to be replaced) two
14x14" flushmount drywall access doors from Acudor.ca will be installed in the dropped bulkhead that look like this:



The door flange is a perforted as a taping bead with pre-punched holes. Drywall compound is applied over the beading at
the same time the drywall joints are finished. When the application is completed, only the door panel remains exposed.
You can then paint it to match the wall. End result is a nearly invisible door that can be opened with a flathead screwdriver.

I installed a Dynamat-like product from B-quiet.com to deaden the HVAC ducts by adding mass:



You start with about 25% coverage, randomly placed, and increase until knocking on the ducts gives a satisfying solid
sounding 'clunk' (like knocking on wood) instead of the hollow metallic 'ping' sound you normally get.

Bathroom plumbing rough-in was completed, including urinal:



For a few years now, plumbing code in many areas (including Ontario) calls for an accessible clean-out cap for urinals. It's
usually a 4" diameter silver cap somewhere near the urinal. Here's an example:



A bit odd that a clean-out is required for a urinal given that it's impossible to flush anything down it, but that's code. Lucky
for us, we have room to install one in the crawlspace under the stairs behind the urinal, so no need for a strange looking
silver cleanout plate in the middle of the wall. I'd like to say that we thought of this ahead of time, but it was purely luck.

A few more interior framing things to get done and then drywall. Drywall is expected to take 6 days from start to end.
Actual work days is about half that as time is required between mudding and sanding to allow for the compound to dry.

Then it's on to the interesting things you actually see, like finishes (tile, carpet, woodwork, etc).

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
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wubears71



Joined: 14 Mar 2012
Posts: 278
Location: Webster Groves, MO

Drinking: Keg 1- Hefenweizen, Keg 2- Vanilla Scotch Porter, Keg 3-Munich Helles

Working on: Stinky IPA


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dang. I love the foam insulation.
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Ben58



Joined: 14 Aug 2011
Posts: 409
Location: Hamilton, Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:

A bit odd that a clean-out is required for a urinal given that it's impossible to flush anything down it, but that's code. Lucky
for us, we have room to install one in the crawlspace under the stairs behind the urinal, so no need for a strange looking
silver cleanout plate in the middle of the wall. I'd like to say that we thought of this ahead of time, but it was purely luck.

Kal

I agree, it is odd. As a licensed plumber here in Ontario, a urinal requires a clean-out while a toilet doesn't, except removal of the toilet now constitutes a clean-out. Bureaucrats! And a word of advice, those deodorizer pucks used in urinals, don't use them, as I've dealt with the gunk built up over time, causes more blockage issues than they are worth.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ben!

I have no plans on using pucks... the flushometer's going to be 1.0 GPF while the urinal only requires 0.5 GPF, so it'll hopefully be well cleaned as it's flushed. Just like a toilet, it'll require a brush cleaning once a while too I suppose.

Kal

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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The entire basement ceiling has now been insulated.



The smell of plywood has been replaced with the smell of burnt cotton candy/caramel that is typical of fiberglass insulation.
(It may look like cotton candy but that doesn't mean you can eat it). Wink

Plumbing inspection is going to be scheduled for Wednesday.

A few more odds and ends to get done in the meantime and then it's on to drywall hopefully by the end of this week.

Kal

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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. Copper's gotten really expensive.

Just got the detailed electrician's bill for the rough wiring and was surprised that the materials cost was higher than the labour cost!

Romex wiring used:

1800' of 14/2 (standard 15A circuit stuff)
50' of 14/3 (for a few 3-way switches)
90' of 12/2 (for two 20A home theater circuits)
35' of 6/3 (for the brewery control panel - oversized in case I ever decide to run a 50A panel instead of 30A)
60' of 8/3 (for the sauna heater)

Total: 2035 feet

Kal

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cscade



Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 140
Location: Wooster, OH


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, copper has gotten very high. I recently had to have a 6" copper water main laid in to a commercial building. Roughly a 80' run under city streets with quite a bit to avoid, and the materials were still a shocking percentage of the cost.
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