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HLT/Mash Tun temp discrepancy
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Kevin59




Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Posts: 1047
Location: Fort Collins, CO

Drinking: Imperial Brown Ale

Working on: Oatmeal Stout, IPA


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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bigtex52 wrote:
I did my first test run using water on Saturday and noticed the same phenomenon, MLT stopped 3 degrees short of the HLT setting. PID was cycling the HLT fairly regularly and holding steady at 154. Bumped it up to 158 and the MLT came right up to 154. The ambient temp was in the mid 60's and I am using non-insulated keggles so I am sure they were losing some heat there. I had a thought afterward that if i ran the temp cable for the HLT to the MLT sensor once it starts to stall out, that might work better since it calls for more heat in the HLT if needed to keep the mash temp up. Any thoughts? Loving this thing BTW Kal!


I would not swap the temp probe cables as you've suggested. Doing so will result in the HLT temps getting much warmer than desired, causing the returning wort to be at those high temps. The response time of the mash to HLT element changes will be way too slow and you'll likely way overshoot your mash temps.

Once you get to actually mashing you'll see the final differential between the HLT and MLT and you can adjust your HLT temps accordingly. I have a 1 degree offset in my system. I have verified the wort temp returning from the HLT is exactly the same as the HLT displayed temp so the HERMS coils is working perfectly. Having a 1 degree gradient from the top to bottom of the MLT isn't a big deal. If you really have 3 degrees then you might want to target a degree lower for mash temps??? Or not.

I'm assuming you calibrated your temp probes together in the same body of water around 150 degrees or so?

Enjoy your system!!!

Kevin
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bigtex52




Joined: 21 Oct 2013
Posts: 7
Location: Carrollton, TX


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin,

Good thoughts. Mashing wort passing through the HERMS coil could theoretically see mashout temps and kill enzyme action. Yes, I did calibrate them together. Thanks for your help!

Ted
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Orangecrush




Joined: 29 Mar 2013
Posts: 52



PostLink    Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On my Stout tanks system, even with the upgraded 1/2" coil, I still found the lag times and mash temp responsiveness not acceptable with bigger beers, +34 lbs of grain. There is just not enough flow rate through the 50 ft of 1/2" herms coil. I could upgrade the pumps but that is expensive so I now use my CFC instead of the herms coil. The results are amazing with about 2.5 to 3 quarts of flow into the mash instead of 1.25 to 1.5 with the herms coil. Uber fast step times and and reach my mash target quickly and consistently, whether I have 24 lbs of grain or 45lbs.

The cool thing for those who have Stout Tanks or other Tri-clamp systems if you can put you B oil Kettle probe on the wort out of the chiller. It fun to see exactly what is going on. That way you can make sure your wort going into the mash are are never too high. I still run a 2 or 3F differential, but the wort out of the chiller (very short 12 ft run) is the same temp as the wort going into to the mash tun, which is the exact mash target temp. Before, the wort going into the mash was 3F higher. Sometimes which 45 lbs it could never reach mash temp over 90 minutes and never wanted to increase the differential more then 3F. Since the change I have noticed more predictable OG and FG results. The BK stays on the chiller, as I use it for the whirlpool and cooling temp probe. Sweet set-up.

The 1/2" herm coil worked fine for normal gravity beers, but was lacking for anything over 1.080 in my system. Please note, that I do not have a Kal clone. I use a Kal control panel with a Stout Tanks system and a Jaybird false bottom which can handle mega flow. More mash flow is the key for a herms system IMHO for large mash beds.

To do this change, you do not even need any extra hoses. Tif anyone is struggling with mach temps, please try it, report back.
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Orangecrush




Joined: 29 Mar 2013
Posts: 52



PostLink    Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On my Stout tanks system, even with the upgraded 1/2" coil, I still found the lag times and mash temp responsiveness not acceptable with bigger beers, +34 lbs of grain. There is just not enough flow rate through the 50 ft of 1/2" herms coil. I could upgrade the pumps but that is expensive so I now use my CFC instead of the herms coil. The results are amazing with about 2.5 to 3 quarts of flow into the mash instead of 1.25 to 1.5 with the herms coil. Uber fast step times and and reach my mash target quickly and consistently, whether I have 24 lbs of grain or 45lbs.

The cool thing for those who have Stout Tanks or other Tri-clamp systems if you can easily put your BKi probe on the wort out of the chiller. It fun to see exactly what is going on. Three probes in the loop instead of two. That way you can make sure your wort going into the mash is never too high. I still run a 2 or 3F differential, but the wort out of the chiller (very short 12 ft run) is the same temp as the wort going into to the mash tun, which is the exact mash target temp.

Before, the wort going into the mash tun was 3F higher. My big beers did not attenuate as expected. Sometimes with 44 lbs it could never reach mash temp over 90 minutes and never wanted to increase the differential more then 3F. Forget about mash out temps. Since the change I have noticed more predictable OG and FG results. The BK stays on the chiller, as I use it for the whirlpool and cooling temp probe. Sweet set-up.

The 1/2" herm coil worked fine for normal gravity beers, but was lacking for anything over 1.080 in my system. Please note, that I do not have a Kal clone. I use a Kal control panel with a Stout Tanks system and a Jaybird false bottom which can handle mega flow. More mash flow is the key for a herms system IMHO for large mash beds.

To do this change, you do not even need any extra hoses. If anyone is struggling with mash temps, please try it, and report back.
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Walts Malt




Joined: 27 Sep 2013
Posts: 119
Location: Farmington, MN

Drinking: Two Hearted Clone

Working on: Planning my Fall Brewing Schedule


PostLink    Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: discrepancy HLT/MLT Reply with quote

pstratton wrote:
I also have a 3 degree discrepancy. I autotuned the PID's, have the thicker hoses, but I have a 10 gallon system and my heat exchanging coil gets out of the water some when I add the mash water to the MLT. I've thought about adding more water to the HLT after this and waiting for it to heat back up and see if that corrects it. May also be good to do this because I find that I barely have enough water in the HLT to finish a sparge at this scale. Brewed the blonde ale recipe last Sunday and used every drop of water from the HLT and the MLT to get my boil volume. Starting to wish I had gone the 20 gallon route...


Can anyone comment on this? Just starting to finalize plans for my build and I want to make sure I'll be OK using keggles in this setup.
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andrzejk2




Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 25
Location: Lubin, Poland


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my thermapen in-line.


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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've calibrated my MLT exactly the same way as andrzejk2 with a little Tee that I can plug the thermapen into. This is how I could confirm that I don't have a temp discrepancy between the two kettles (it's under 1F).

Kal

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catskinr




Joined: 10 Dec 2014
Posts: 6



PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any links to that fitting?
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Castermmt




Joined: 03 Jan 2011
Posts: 863
Location: Lowell, In

Drinking: Steelhead Porter, Alt-Toids, Hefty-Weizen, Terry's Kolsch, African Amber, Pumpkin Ale, Double Dog Ale

Working on: Janet's Brown Ale, Terry's Kolsch, Pilsner


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catskinr wrote:
Any links to that fitting?


Note: This fitting will not fit a Thermo pen. I use it with a meat probe which is larger then the the Thermo pen probe!

Here you go. Bobby is a great guy to deal with.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/pcomp1.htm

I also use this Corded Digital Thermometer. You can find them on Fleabay for around $20 shipped.
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/cdndttc.htm



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Last edited by Castermmt on Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:02 pm; edited 2 times in total
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Castermmt wrote:
catskinr wrote:
Any links to that fitting?


Here you go. Bobby is a great guy to deal with.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/pcomp1.htm

FYI: Those fittings are for thermo's with a probe that is 0.19" to .25" in diameter. A thermapen's probe is only 0.128" in diameter.

I actually emailed Bobby way back when I wanted to build one myself and he said that a Thermapen was indeed to narrow and would leak.

You may not get leaks now but just be aware that it probably should be leaking ... Wink

(I ended up having one custom made by someone who tells me he doesn't want to make any more - sorry!)

Kal

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Castermmt




Joined: 03 Jan 2011
Posts: 863
Location: Lowell, In

Drinking: Steelhead Porter, Alt-Toids, Hefty-Weizen, Terry's Kolsch, African Amber, Pumpkin Ale, Double Dog Ale

Working on: Janet's Brown Ale, Terry's Kolsch, Pilsner


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the confusion, I don't use my thermal pen in this setup. I use the meat probe style and double o rings to increase sealing surface. I can compare the pen to the meat probe on the stove top when I feel the need to check accuracy.
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chastuck




Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 193
Location: Beckenham, Kent, UK

Drinking: Bitter

Working on: IPA


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Castermmt wrote:
catskinr wrote:
Any links to that fitting?


Here you go. Bobby is a great guy to deal with.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/pcomp1.htm

FYI: Those fittings are for thermo's with a probe that is 0.19" to .25" in diameter. A thermapen's probe is only 0.128" in diameter.

I actually emailed Bobby way back when I wanted to build one myself and he said that a Thermapen was indeed to narrow and would leak.

You may not get leaks now but just be aware that it probably should be leaking ... Wink

(I ended up having one custom made by someone who tells me he doesn't want to make any more - sorry!)

Kal

Kal, I know you said that your supplier doesn't want to make any more for Thermapens, but can you tell me the size of the silicon O rings used in yours? I think I could get the right compression gland here in the UK if I knew what size O rings you have. For instance, the Thermapen probe is 3.25mm diameter and here I can get temperature probe glands for 3.0, 3.175 (1/8"), 4.5, and 6.0mm probe diameters. Thanks.
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andrzejk2




Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 25
Location: Lubin, Poland


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1/8" x 3 mm SS Compression Fitting - for thermapen you must drill to 3,3-3,5 mm and seal with O-ring 3x2 mm (i.e. OD 7 mm)

plus 1/4" male x 1/8" female plus 1/2" male x 1/4" female
or
plus 1/2 male x 1/8 female
thread reducer

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Last edited by andrzejk2 on Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chastuck wrote:
Kal, I know you said that your supplier doesn't want to make any more for Thermapens, but can you tell me the size of the silicon O rings used in yours?

I can't as he didn't mention the specs so I don't know what he used. Sorry. It's not just the o-ring but the size of the hole in the cap of the stainless compression fitting that matters too. The 3 things (diameter of the probe, the hole size, and the o-ring size) go hand in hand. If you use a smaller o-ring but have a larger hole, the o-ring may bulge through.

Kal

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chastuck




Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 193
Location: Beckenham, Kent, UK

Drinking: Bitter

Working on: IPA


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrzejk2 wrote:
1/8" x 3 mm SS Compression Fitting - for thermapen you must drill to 3,3-3,5 mm and seal with O-ring 3x2 mm (i.e. OD 7 mm)

plus 1/4" male x 1/8" female plus 1/2" male x 1/4" female
or
plus 1/2 male x 1/8 female
thread reducer

Many thanks for this. I should be able to make one up. What was your source for the O-rings?
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andrzejk2




Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 25
Location: Lubin, Poland


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My source for the O-rings - online store in Poland.
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chastuck




Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 193
Location: Beckenham, Kent, UK

Drinking: Bitter

Working on: IPA


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrzejk2 wrote:
My source for the O-rings - online store in Poland.

Had a look at that site and it's all Polish to me! Didn't understand a word of it. Anyhow, found some O-rings from Sourcingmap.com that were ID 3mm x 8mm OD x 2.5mm thickness. Not quite the same as yours, but hopefully close enough to work.
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chastuck




Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 193
Location: Beckenham, Kent, UK

Drinking: Bitter

Working on: IPA


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Castermmt wrote:
catskinr wrote:
Any links to that fitting?


Here you go. Bobby is a great guy to deal with.

https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/pcomp1.htm

FYI: Those fittings are for thermo's with a probe that is 0.19" to .25" in diameter. A thermapen's probe is only 0.128" in diameter.

I actually emailed Bobby way back when I wanted to build one myself and he said that a Thermapen was indeed to narrow and would leak.

You may not get leaks now but just be aware that it probably should be leaking ... Wink

(I ended up having one custom made by someone who tells me he doesn't want to make any more - sorry!)

Kal

Just had another look at the brewhardware.com probe fitting and there's a bit of a descrepancy regarding what probe size it will accomodate. As you say Kal, the web page says it "will accept from .19" to a .25" diameter probe", whilst the next paragraph says "The range of probe diameters supported with this fitting is 1/8" to 1/4"". Well 1/8" is 3.175mm and I measured my Thermapen probe diameter at 3.25mm, so if this is to be believed their 'PCOMP1 - 1/2" Male NPT to Narrow Probe' fitting should not leak.
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got another email from a user this morning who was seeing a temperature differential between the MLT and HLT and was able to make it go away by swapping out their hoses and pumps for what's recommended in the build instructions.

Use this 7/8" OD silicone hose: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/High-temperature-food-grade-silicone-tubing-1-2-ID-3-4-7-8-OD

Use these center inlet pumps: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/March-809-or-815-pump-with-high-temperature-stainless-steel-housing-3-4-MPT-center-inlet-1-2-MPT-outlet

To quote the user:

"I had originally tested the HERMS with the thinner 1/2 ID silicon and had my pumps setup with the inline heads (long story). I was landing about 1-2 degrees cooler in the mash kettle. I swapped out the pump heads for the front inlet and swapped out the silicon with what you recommend and I now hit the same temp!" - Todd W.

Kal

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Tennessee




Joined: 04 Apr 2015
Posts: 116
Location: Tennessee


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here you go!

http://www.thesensorconnection.com/thermocouples/all-thermocouples/thermocouple-compression-fitting-adapters-14-npt-thread-316-stainles

...and this

http://www.thesensorconnection.com/thermocouples/accessories/teflon-ferrule-thermocouple-compression-fitting

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