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Kevin59
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 Posts: 1047 Location: Fort Collins, CO
Drinking: Imperial Brown Ale
Working on: Oatmeal Stout, IPA
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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bigtex52 wrote: | I did my first test run using water on Saturday and noticed the same phenomenon, MLT stopped 3 degrees short of the HLT setting. PID was cycling the HLT fairly regularly and holding steady at 154. Bumped it up to 158 and the MLT came right up to 154. The ambient temp was in the mid 60's and I am using non-insulated keggles so I am sure they were losing some heat there. I had a thought afterward that if i ran the temp cable for the HLT to the MLT sensor once it starts to stall out, that might work better since it calls for more heat in the HLT if needed to keep the mash temp up. Any thoughts? Loving this thing BTW Kal! |
I would not swap the temp probe cables as you've suggested. Doing so will result in the HLT temps getting much warmer than desired, causing the returning wort to be at those high temps. The response time of the mash to HLT element changes will be way too slow and you'll likely way overshoot your mash temps.
Once you get to actually mashing you'll see the final differential between the HLT and MLT and you can adjust your HLT temps accordingly. I have a 1 degree offset in my system. I have verified the wort temp returning from the HLT is exactly the same as the HLT displayed temp so the HERMS coils is working perfectly. Having a 1 degree gradient from the top to bottom of the MLT isn't a big deal. If you really have 3 degrees then you might want to target a degree lower for mash temps??? Or not.
I'm assuming you calibrated your temp probes together in the same body of water around 150 degrees or so?
Enjoy your system!!!
Kevin
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bigtex52
Joined: 21 Oct 2013 Posts: 7 Location: Carrollton, TX
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Kevin,
Good thoughts. Mashing wort passing through the HERMS coil could theoretically see mashout temps and kill enzyme action. Yes, I did calibrate them together. Thanks for your help!
Ted
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Orangecrush
Joined: 29 Mar 2013 Posts: 52
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Link Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:57 am Post subject: |
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On my Stout tanks system, even with the upgraded 1/2" coil, I still found the lag times and mash temp responsiveness not acceptable with bigger beers, +34 lbs of grain. There is just not enough flow rate through the 50 ft of 1/2" herms coil. I could upgrade the pumps but that is expensive so I now use my CFC instead of the herms coil. The results are amazing with about 2.5 to 3 quarts of flow into the mash instead of 1.25 to 1.5 with the herms coil. Uber fast step times and and reach my mash target quickly and consistently, whether I have 24 lbs of grain or 45lbs.
The cool thing for those who have Stout Tanks or other Tri-clamp systems if you can put you B oil Kettle probe on the wort out of the chiller. It fun to see exactly what is going on. That way you can make sure your wort going into the mash are are never too high. I still run a 2 or 3F differential, but the wort out of the chiller (very short 12 ft run) is the same temp as the wort going into to the mash tun, which is the exact mash target temp. Before, the wort going into the mash was 3F higher. Sometimes which 45 lbs it could never reach mash temp over 90 minutes and never wanted to increase the differential more then 3F. Since the change I have noticed more predictable OG and FG results. The BK stays on the chiller, as I use it for the whirlpool and cooling temp probe. Sweet set-up.
The 1/2" herm coil worked fine for normal gravity beers, but was lacking for anything over 1.080 in my system. Please note, that I do not have a Kal clone. I use a Kal control panel with a Stout Tanks system and a Jaybird false bottom which can handle mega flow. More mash flow is the key for a herms system IMHO for large mash beds.
To do this change, you do not even need any extra hoses. Tif anyone is struggling with mach temps, please try it, report back.
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Orangecrush
Joined: 29 Mar 2013 Posts: 52
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Link Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:57 am Post subject: |
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On my Stout tanks system, even with the upgraded 1/2" coil, I still found the lag times and mash temp responsiveness not acceptable with bigger beers, +34 lbs of grain. There is just not enough flow rate through the 50 ft of 1/2" herms coil. I could upgrade the pumps but that is expensive so I now use my CFC instead of the herms coil. The results are amazing with about 2.5 to 3 quarts of flow into the mash instead of 1.25 to 1.5 with the herms coil. Uber fast step times and and reach my mash target quickly and consistently, whether I have 24 lbs of grain or 45lbs.
The cool thing for those who have Stout Tanks or other Tri-clamp systems if you can easily put your BKi probe on the wort out of the chiller. It fun to see exactly what is going on. Three probes in the loop instead of two. That way you can make sure your wort going into the mash is never too high. I still run a 2 or 3F differential, but the wort out of the chiller (very short 12 ft run) is the same temp as the wort going into to the mash tun, which is the exact mash target temp.
Before, the wort going into the mash tun was 3F higher. My big beers did not attenuate as expected. Sometimes with 44 lbs it could never reach mash temp over 90 minutes and never wanted to increase the differential more then 3F. Forget about mash out temps. Since the change I have noticed more predictable OG and FG results. The BK stays on the chiller, as I use it for the whirlpool and cooling temp probe. Sweet set-up.
The 1/2" herm coil worked fine for normal gravity beers, but was lacking for anything over 1.080 in my system. Please note, that I do not have a Kal clone. I use a Kal control panel with a Stout Tanks system and a Jaybird false bottom which can handle mega flow. More mash flow is the key for a herms system IMHO for large mash beds.
To do this change, you do not even need any extra hoses. If anyone is struggling with mash temps, please try it, and report back.
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Walts Malt
Joined: 27 Sep 2013 Posts: 119 Location: Farmington, MN
Drinking: Two Hearted Clone
Working on: Planning my Fall Brewing Schedule
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Link Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: discrepancy HLT/MLT |
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pstratton wrote: | I also have a 3 degree discrepancy. I autotuned the PID's, have the thicker hoses, but I have a 10 gallon system and my heat exchanging coil gets out of the water some when I add the mash water to the MLT. I've thought about adding more water to the HLT after this and waiting for it to heat back up and see if that corrects it. May also be good to do this because I find that I barely have enough water in the HLT to finish a sparge at this scale. Brewed the blonde ale recipe last Sunday and used every drop of water from the HLT and the MLT to get my boil volume. Starting to wish I had gone the 20 gallon route... |
Can anyone comment on this? Just starting to finalize plans for my build and I want to make sure I'll be OK using keggles in this setup.
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andrzejk2
Joined: 21 Aug 2013 Posts: 25 Location: Lubin, Poland
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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catskinr
Joined: 10 Dec 2014 Posts: 6
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Link Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Any links to that fitting?
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Castermmt
Joined: 03 Jan 2011 Posts: 863 Location: Lowell, In
Drinking: Steelhead Porter, Alt-Toids, Hefty-Weizen, Terry's Kolsch, African Amber, Pumpkin Ale, Double Dog Ale
Working on: Janet's Brown Ale, Terry's Kolsch, Pilsner
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Castermmt
Joined: 03 Jan 2011 Posts: 863 Location: Lowell, In
Drinking: Steelhead Porter, Alt-Toids, Hefty-Weizen, Terry's Kolsch, African Amber, Pumpkin Ale, Double Dog Ale
Working on: Janet's Brown Ale, Terry's Kolsch, Pilsner
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Link Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for the confusion, I don't use my thermal pen in this setup. I use the meat probe style and double o rings to increase sealing surface. I can compare the pen to the meat probe on the stove top when I feel the need to check accuracy.
_________________ http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24836
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chastuck
Joined: 06 Oct 2013 Posts: 193 Location: Beckenham, Kent, UK
Drinking: Bitter
Working on: IPA
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Link Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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kal wrote: |
FYI: Those fittings are for thermo's with a probe that is 0.19" to .25" in diameter. A thermapen's probe is only 0.128" in diameter.
I actually emailed Bobby way back when I wanted to build one myself and he said that a Thermapen was indeed to narrow and would leak.
You may not get leaks now but just be aware that it probably should be leaking ...
(I ended up having one custom made by someone who tells me he doesn't want to make any more - sorry!)
Kal |
Kal, I know you said that your supplier doesn't want to make any more for Thermapens, but can you tell me the size of the silicon O rings used in yours? I think I could get the right compression gland here in the UK if I knew what size O rings you have. For instance, the Thermapen probe is 3.25mm diameter and here I can get temperature probe glands for 3.0, 3.175 (1/8"), 4.5, and 6.0mm probe diameters. Thanks.
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andrzejk2
Joined: 21 Aug 2013 Posts: 25 Location: Lubin, Poland
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Link Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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1/8" x 3 mm SS Compression Fitting - for thermapen you must drill to 3,3-3,5 mm and seal with O-ring 3x2 mm (i.e. OD 7 mm)
plus 1/4" male x 1/8" female plus 1/2" male x 1/4" female
or
plus 1/2 male x 1/8 female
thread reducer
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Last edited by andrzejk2 on Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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chastuck wrote: | Kal, I know you said that your supplier doesn't want to make any more for Thermapens, but can you tell me the size of the silicon O rings used in yours? |
I can't as he didn't mention the specs so I don't know what he used. Sorry. It's not just the o-ring but the size of the hole in the cap of the stainless compression fitting that matters too. The 3 things (diameter of the probe, the hole size, and the o-ring size) go hand in hand. If you use a smaller o-ring but have a larger hole, the o-ring may bulge through.
Kal
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My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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chastuck
Joined: 06 Oct 2013 Posts: 193 Location: Beckenham, Kent, UK
Drinking: Bitter
Working on: IPA
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Link Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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andrzejk2 wrote: | 1/8" x 3 mm SS Compression Fitting - for thermapen you must drill to 3,3-3,5 mm and seal with O-ring 3x2 mm (i.e. OD 7 mm)
plus 1/4" male x 1/8" female plus 1/2" male x 1/4" female
or
plus 1/2 male x 1/8 female
thread reducer |
Many thanks for this. I should be able to make one up. What was your source for the O-rings?
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andrzejk2
Joined: 21 Aug 2013 Posts: 25 Location: Lubin, Poland
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chastuck
Joined: 06 Oct 2013 Posts: 193 Location: Beckenham, Kent, UK
Drinking: Bitter
Working on: IPA
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Link Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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andrzejk2 wrote: | My source for the O-rings - online store in Poland. |
Had a look at that site and it's all Polish to me! Didn't understand a word of it. Anyhow, found some O-rings from Sourcingmap.com that were ID 3mm x 8mm OD x 2.5mm thickness. Not quite the same as yours, but hopefully close enough to work.
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chastuck
Joined: 06 Oct 2013 Posts: 193 Location: Beckenham, Kent, UK
Drinking: Bitter
Working on: IPA
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Link Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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kal wrote: |
FYI: Those fittings are for thermo's with a probe that is 0.19" to .25" in diameter. A thermapen's probe is only 0.128" in diameter.
I actually emailed Bobby way back when I wanted to build one myself and he said that a Thermapen was indeed to narrow and would leak.
You may not get leaks now but just be aware that it probably should be leaking ...
(I ended up having one custom made by someone who tells me he doesn't want to make any more - sorry!)
Kal |
Just had another look at the brewhardware.com probe fitting and there's a bit of a descrepancy regarding what probe size it will accomodate. As you say Kal, the web page says it "will accept from .19" to a .25" diameter probe", whilst the next paragraph says "The range of probe diameters supported with this fitting is 1/8" to 1/4"". Well 1/8" is 3.175mm and I measured my Thermapen probe diameter at 3.25mm, so if this is to be believed their 'PCOMP1 - 1/2" Male NPT to Narrow Probe' fitting should not leak.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Tennessee
Joined: 04 Apr 2015 Posts: 116 Location: Tennessee
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