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Layout check

 
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MadDwarf



Joined: 14 Mar 2013
Posts: 5



PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:01 pm    Post subject: Layout check Reply with quote


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About ready to start cutting holes for my 50A back-to-back system, and wanted to do a sanity check to make sure I'm not missing anything on the layout. Feel free to comment if anything looks too close or if there's a better way to set things up.

Changes from base kit:
    - Adding second timer so I can have both mash and boil on separate countdowns.
    - Adding additional switch and 110V receptacle for RIMS tube element.
    - Replacing switches and lights for elements and pumps with illuminated switches - panel was getting too busy.

For trying layouts, I cut templates from a thin sheet magnet - made it a lot easier to shuffle things around.



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Kevin59



Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Posts: 1030
Location: Fort Collins, CO

Drinking: Robust Porter, Am Red Ale, Pale Ale, Am Brown Ale, Oktoberfest Ale, Oatmeal Stout, Chocolate Oatmeal Stout


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum!

Looks pretty good to me. One comment since you're doing a back to back... If you think you might ever want to whirlpool in your BK and you're doing back to back batches, you might want to add a 3rd pump to your system. If so they you might want to add a 3rd pump switch. In which case you could save some room on the bottom of the panel by removing the pump power outlets and replacing them with a cord grip that has an 18/5 SOOW cord. It could feed a 3-gang outlet box that's tucked up under your brew stand, and you just plug your pumps in there.

Have fun with the build!

Mug
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 5075
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Kolsch, ESB, San Francisco Lager, Belgian Wit, California Common, Electric Pale Ale, Dry Irish Stout, Irish Red Ale

Working on: Heady Topper


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Layout check Reply with quote

MadDwarf wrote:
About ready to start cutting holes for my 50A back-to-back system...
...Adding additional switch and 110V receptacle for RIMS tube element.

Heads up that you likely won't have enough power to drive three elements at once on a 50A panel. Are you undersizing all 3 elements?

Kal

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MadDwarf



Joined: 14 Mar 2013
Posts: 5



PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Layout check Reply with quote

Kevin59 wrote:
Welcome to the forum!

Looks pretty good to me. One comment since you're doing a back to back... If you think you might ever want to whirlpool in your BK and you're doing back to back batches, you might want to add a 3rd pump to your system. If so they you might want to add a 3rd pump switch. In which case you could save some room on the bottom of the panel by removing the pump power outlets and replacing them with a cord grip that has an 18/5 SOOW cord. It could feed a 3-gang outlet box that's tucked up under your brew stand, and you just plug your pumps in there.

Have fun with the build!

Mug


That's an interesting thought. I actually don't even have 2 pumps at the moment, was just trying to future-proof. I've been doing back-to-back on my propane system for awhile, but I use gravity to feed my sparge, and I don't currently whirlpool.

kal wrote:
MadDwarf wrote:
About ready to start cutting holes for my 50A back-to-back system...
...Adding additional switch and 110V receptacle for RIMS tube element.

Heads up that you likely won't have enough power to drive three elements at once on a 50A panel. Are you undersizing all 3 elements?

Kal


Yep, I know I won't be able to run all 3 elements at once. If I used my RIMS tube (again, may end up sticking with HERMS, but want to give myself the option to try different things) I was planning to use the HLT element to heat sparge water a little past temp, then switch over to RIMS to pick up any heat loss and/or work through mash steps if I wasn't doing a single-temp infusion.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 5075
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Kolsch, ESB, San Francisco Lager, Belgian Wit, California Common, Electric Pale Ale, Dry Irish Stout, Irish Red Ale

Working on: Heady Topper


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:23 am    Post subject: Re: Layout check Reply with quote

MadDwarf wrote:
If I used my RIMS tube (again, may end up sticking with HERMS, but want to give myself the option to try different things) I was planning to use the HLT element to heat sparge water a little past temp, then switch over to RIMS to pick up any heat loss and/or work through mash steps if I wasn't doing a single-temp infusion.

Just so you know, there's nothing that RIMS will give you that HERMS doesn't - they're just two different ways to heat. Has nothing to do with single temp infusion or multi-step. I've done both with HERMS from shorter single infusion mashes to long 3-4 hour multi-step mashes. Having both just sounds needlessly complex.

When I first looked at both RIMS and HERMS when designing my setup, RIMS (in my eyes) had many downsides including:

- The fact that I couldn't run the RIMS element at the same time as the HLT element on a 30A circuit for the size of elements I wanted.
- The (sometimes) non-gentle heating of the wort (as compared to HERMS). With RIMS there is a chance of scorching your wort or deactivating enzymes by overheating.
- Extra difficulty in cleaning: The extreme heat and use of a hidden/embedded heating element in the RIMS tube requires you to disassemble completely and clean while with my design the HERMS coil is automatically cleaned during sparging. No disassembly required.
- Risk of scorching the wort if the pump was to stop for even a short period of time (seconds), ruining the entire batch.
- Dangers of the RIMS tube exploding sending chards of metal around the room if something was to get clogged. The Blichmann RIMS Rocket (for example) has a rubber stopper that will blow if ever a dangerous pressure situation was to present itself, allowing the boiling wort to escape. I guess they assume that burns from boiling wort spraying all over the room is less dangerous than chards of metal impaling the brewer. Wink

HERMS was a better choice for me for my brewing process so I built a design based around HERMS instead of RIMS. You may have different needs/requirements however.

Enjoy the build!

Kal

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MadDwarf



Joined: 14 Mar 2013
Posts: 5



PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ran HERMS when I was using propane, using an old immersion chiller. The one thing that made me want to try RIMS was when I would undershoot my temp at dough-in. At that point, I wanted to raise my mash temp a few degrees, but had already used enough water from the HLT that it was difficult to get any heat transfer without first heating up additional water. For a single batch, I could work around this by heating my strike water in the BK at the same time as sparge water in the HLT, but on back-to-back batches, the BK is already spoken for.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 5075
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Kolsch, ESB, San Francisco Lager, Belgian Wit, California Common, Electric Pale Ale, Dry Irish Stout, Irish Red Ale

Working on: Heady Topper


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MadDwarf wrote:
I ran HERMS when I was using propane, using an old immersion chiller. The one thing that made me want to try RIMS was when I would undershoot my temp at dough-in. At that point, I wanted to raise my mash temp a few degrees, but had already used enough water from the HLT that it was difficult to get any heat transfer without first heating up additional water. For a single batch, I could work around this by heating my strike water in the BK at the same time as sparge water in the HLT, but on back-to-back batches, the BK is already spoken for.

You don't need to do that. I suggest something simpler:

If you have an undersized HLT and using HERMS, simply fill the MLT and HLT separately at the start of the brew day and heat both. The heating element in the HLT heats the HLT sparge water directly, and the MLT strike water gets heated "indirectly" by looping through the HERMS coil in the HLT. Same result as pre-heating all the water together in the HLT first and then transferring strike water over to the MLT. No difference.

Turn the MLT pump off, dough in, turn the MLT pump back on. The MLT will get back up to temp within a few minutes.

I've had to do this once or twice with REALLY big beers that need more than 20 gallons of water (my HLT size) due to the amount of grain that soaks up water.

Kal

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MadDwarf



Joined: 14 Mar 2013
Posts: 5



PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So for the 2nd batch, it would take a little longer to get started, since I would need to heat strike + sparge rather than just starting with the water left from sparging the 1st batch. Sounds like the HLT is the place to put the 5500W element and let the 4500W in the BK help keep me under the 50A buffer.

I'll give that a shot, thanks. I'm thinking I'll still drill for the switch and receptacle - they can just be used for a 3rd pump/AUX power if I'm able to get things running smoothly without RIMS.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 5075
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Kolsch, ESB, San Francisco Lager, Belgian Wit, California Common, Electric Pale Ale, Dry Irish Stout, Irish Red Ale

Working on: Heady Topper


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck!

Kal

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chastuck



Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 67
Location: Beckenham, Kent, UK

Drinking: Bitter

Working on: IPA


PostLink    Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
MadDwarf wrote:
I ran HERMS when I was using propane, using an old immersion chiller. The one thing that made me want to try RIMS was when I would undershoot my temp at dough-in. At that point, I wanted to raise my mash temp a few degrees, but had already used enough water from the HLT that it was difficult to get any heat transfer without first heating up additional water. For a single batch, I could work around this by heating my strike water in the BK at the same time as sparge water in the HLT, but on back-to-back batches, the BK is already spoken for.

You don't need to do that. I suggest something simpler:

If you have an undersized HLT and using HERMS, simply fill the MLT and HLT separately at the start of the brew day and heat both. The heating element in the HLT heats the HLT sparge water directly, and the MLT strike water gets heated "indirectly" by looping through the HERMS coil in the HLT. Same result as pre-heating all the water together in the HLT first and then transferring strike water over to the MLT. No difference.

Turn the MLT pump off, dough in, turn the MLT pump back on. The MLT will get back up to temp within a few minutes.

I've had to do this once or twice with REALLY big beers that need more than 20 gallons of water (my HLT size) due to the amount of grain that soaks up water.

Kal

Well done Kal. That is so brilliantly simple. I never thought of doing such an obvious thing when I've been stuck with HLT capacity in the past. Thanks for the tip.
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Kazumichan



Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 79
Location: Cincinnati Ohio area

Working on: Tripple, Oktoberfest


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that I have been meaning to say, is on your paper cutouts of your receptacles. Are they the size of the holes, or the size of the flanges? If it's just the hole size they are too close together for the flanges to fit.
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MadDwarf



Joined: 14 Mar 2013
Posts: 5



PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kazumichan wrote:
One thing that I have been meaning to say, is on your paper cutouts of your receptacles. Are they the size of the holes, or the size of the flanges? If it's just the hole size they are too close together for the flanges to fit.


Good question - should have specified. All of the cutouts are the size of components as they will appear on the outside of the panel, including flanges. The holes will be smaller than those cutouts.
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