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FAQ: Adapting for 220-240V countries
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rivetcatcher



Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 118
Location: Thailand

Drinking: Timothy Taylor Landlord / Hop Candy Jr

Working on: Juicy Bits


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Looking good. I did the same with the combined volt/ammeter. I also used the same type of receptacles only 32A for the supply and 16A for the pumps. I'm based in Thailand at the moment so its not as easy to get exactly the same parts as Kals version.

Only comment I would have is that I think you should change your socket to 32A. It also means installing a new supply socket and cable on your wall. Using a 3500W heating element means you will pull 15.90A with the element alone. Add to that the current from the pumps and control circuit and you are already above 16A.
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barney the bear



Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 37
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Hambrau:

I can see you will use 3 500W induction plates (Hendi?). They have become popular here in Sweden too. I wonder how you control the temperature during mashing. I have followed the long thread on hobbybrauer.de about this. Can you actually use the PID:s in the electricbrewery-box for this purpose? And how?

And then - you ask persons not living in Germany/Europe and not familiar with the circumstances here and I think you will not get the correct answers every time.

Probably you will not have a 32A 1-phase 230V outlet in a home in Germany or Sweden but you can have 3-phase and 16A on each phase. You can modify for that but you do not need to change any of the the control functions in the box. You will use one phase on the control side on all relays/contactors but you can use different phases on the power side of the relays and the SSR connected to that relay. With two relays and two SSR:s you will then have 32A, two outlets - 16A each. But you must know what you are doing. You may not connect the hot side of the different phases to each other i this case (230V). But they all use the same neutral (there is only one).
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hambräu



Joined: 07 Jun 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Hamburg - Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, yes thats right, I use 3500W induktion heater. The Mash Temperatur will be cotrolled by an inkbird PID Temp controller.
Inkbird itc 100 Inkbird Dual Digitale Temperaturregler Thermostat Thermoelement PID Temperature Controller 220V ITC-100VH Mit 25A SSR Solid State Relais Mit K sensor https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00HVA23CK/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_GruQzbGVTBD71
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barney the bear



Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 37
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason why I asked how you will control the induction plate is that you cannot just switch the AC-current for the plate on and off with a AC SSR controlled by a PID. Well, the plate will be switched on an off but will not like it in the end. The fans and the electronics in the plate will also be switched on and off very frequently.

The controlled plates mentioned i the german forum are hacked. The manual Hendis has a control unit with a turning nob that operates a potentiometer and an on/off-switch. The potentiometer varies a DC-current from 0 to 5V and this makes the effect to change. This unit is hacked and controlled in different ways by Arduinos, RasberryPi:s etc.
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hambräu



Joined: 07 Jun 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Hamburg - Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the Mash I will use this manual hendi plate. Once reached my Mash Temp i.e. 68C it will not switched on and Off so often. I will see in tests and the use if it works like designed. Cheers, Hambräu
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barney the bear



Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 37
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: FAQ: Adapting for 220-240V countries Reply with quote

kal wrote:
FAQ: Adapting for 220-240V countries



I only have 3-phase 208V available. Can I use this panel?

Maybe. You may use use a single phase of the 208V 3-phase system instead of 240V as long NEUTRAL and GROUND are also available. Keep in mind that the heating elements are meant to be run at 240V so at 208V the power output will be reduced slightly. For example, the 5500W / 240V heating element will only output 4160W when powered with 208V.


Kal

It is confusing to me that anybody in a 220-240V country ask this. You cannot find 208V three phase there. A more relevant question is:
"I have 3-phase 400V available. Can I use this panel?"

The voltage between two phases (hots) in a 208V three phase system is 208V. The voltage between one phase (hot) and neutral is 120V.

The voltage between two phases in a 400V system is 400V and between one phase and neutral 230V.

Some three phase mathematics here: If you multiply 120 with the square root of three you get 208 and if do the same with 230 you get 400.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10077
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: FAQ: Adapting for 220-240V countries Reply with quote

barney the bear wrote:
It is confusing to me that anybody in a 220-240V country ask this. You cannot find 208V three phase there. A more relevant question is: "I have 3-phase 400V available. Can I use this panel?"

Good point - Thanks! I updated the FAQ.

Kal

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mtweeman



Joined: 10 Feb 2017
Posts: 29



PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to use 25A din rail contactor (according to supplier: AC-1 type to be used in non-inductive or slightly inductive applications) in my setup instead of mechanical relays proposed on the website. Is there anything against it? Do you think I should grab 30A at least?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10077
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mtweeman wrote:
I would like to use 25A din rail contactor (according to supplier: AC-1 type to be used in non-inductive or slightly inductive applications) in my setup instead of mechanical relays proposed on the website. Is there anything against it? Do you think I should grab 30A at least?

I would highly recommend using ones that support at least 30A resistive.

Kal

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mtweeman



Joined: 10 Feb 2017
Posts: 29



PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. It shouldn't be pushed to its limits I assume? I mean it's better to run it some Amps below rated capacity?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10077
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

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PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct. In some cases code says you shouldn't go above 80%.

Kal

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Cockey



Joined: 01 Oct 2017
Posts: 1
Location: Lidköping Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

barney the bear wrote:
Hello

I live in Sweden, not a 220-240V-country but more of a 230/400V-3-phase-country!

In a modern home here you will not find a 230V 30A wall outlet. Mostly there are a lot of 10A and a few 16A BUT a 3-phase 16A for the stove in the kitchen and maybe one in the garage or the cellar if you live in a house of your own.

That means the cable to the 3-phase-outlet have 5 leaders, 3 for each phase 230V, one neutral and one ground. If you measure the voltage between a phase and neutral it is 230V BUT between one phase and another it is 400V (!).

This gives you some advantages. An example: A 50A 240V outlet can give you 12000W for an element with one "loop". A 3-phase outlet with 16A on each phase (230V) can give you 11040W (48A) with an element with three "loops". In that case each phase "feeds" its "own loop" (phase and neutral).

But if you put all the phases together so they "feed" all the "loops" together the voltage is 400V and 48A gives you 19200W (!). In this case you do not use the neutral.

I think the ElectricBrewery-equipment need some more changes if you want to use all the possibilities over here.


Im from Sweden to and I would love it if you could help me with some questions.
I will send you a PM. Thanks!
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BBKING



Joined: 29 Nov 2017
Posts: 2
Location: norway


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

straight outta Norway here. I´m about to get a single phase 32A connection installed from my circuit box, but we´ve got two hot and one ground, no neutral, how do i do it?

sincerly Bjørnar
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10077
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBKING wrote:
straight outta Norway here. I´m about to get a single phase 32A connection installed from my circuit box, but we´ve got two hot and one ground, no neutral, how do i do it?

sincerly Bjørnar

Strange - I'm not sure, as Norway normally runs at 230V with no 110-120V available, which means there should only be one hot, one neutral, and one ground. So I can't explain what you're describing/seeing. What sort of setup do you have? What sort of voltage differentials do you have when you measure between the various lines? (Note that if there's any questions about this this is best left to your electrician to confirm/answer). Good luck!

Kal

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barney the bear



Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 37
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides the 3-phase 230/400V system with 400V between two phases and 230V between one phase and neutral there is also an old 3-phase system in Norway with 230V between two phases and no neutral is used.

As I see it - a controlpanel that runs only on 220-240V can be used here with or without neutral - one hot and neutral or two hots.


Last edited by barney the bear on Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10077
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah! Of course, a different 3 phase system makes sense. Thanks Barney! Sounds like it would be pretty straight forward to set up then if that's the case. Best to confirm with your electrician. If that's what you have, you should be able to to just treat one of the HOTs as the neutral in the wiring diagrams.

Kal

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BBKING



Joined: 29 Nov 2017
Posts: 2
Location: norway


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Smile thank you. Im starting my build this weekend, so be prepared for more stupid questions Smile
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theafricanbrewer



Joined: 21 Oct 2017
Posts: 1



PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can someone assist me with wiring my transformer primary and secondary in series? I'm not sure which terminals should be connected to each other.

*From the manufacturer: "primary windings which may be connected in series for 230V or parallel for 115V operation. The two independent secondary windings may be connected in series or parallel to give a wide range of output voltage and current options."

Here's a pic with the schematic.

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ludicrous_larry



Joined: 27 Dec 2018
Posts: 2
Location: Naples, Italy


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Hi Adam,

Ground should always be connected to the panel enclosure, backplane, kettles, and so forth. For safety reasons. NEVER bond the NEUTRAL to GROUND other than in your primary electrical panel (where your breakers are). Bonding anywhere else (such as in the control panel or an electrical sub-panel) should not be done.

You may certainly build a 240V panel using only 240V parts and use it in the US. You simply would not hook up or use the NEUTRAL at all as you don't need 120V. GROUND should be connected however.

Note that 240V pumps are harder to find here, hence the reason we use both 120V and 240V in the North American design.

Kal


Kal,
Any suggestions for building a panel that will work for for either U.S. or Europe without any modifications? Work seems to take me abroad and then back stateside every 2 years or so. It looks like from the above that if I built the 240V panel in Europe when I get back stateside all I would have to change is the power chord. Is that correct?
I figured I would use 230V pumps to keep number of different voltages in the cabinet to a minimum.
Finally, having used utilized the same general design for years does anyone on the forum have any upgrades or modernizations to recommend?
I am truly envious of the basement 2 and gratious for all of the documentation you have put together & advice given?
Cheers,
Robb
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10077
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Robb! Welcome to the forum!

ludicrous_larry wrote:
kal wrote:
You may certainly build a 240V panel using only 240V parts and use it in the US. You simply would not hook up or use the NEUTRAL at all as you don't need 120V. GROUND should be connected however.

Note that 240V pumps are harder to find here, hence the reason we use both 120V and 240V in the North American design.

Kal


Any suggestions for building a panel that will work for for either U.S. or Europe without any modifications?

Sure! What I mentioned above will work just fine.

Quote:
It looks like from the above that if I built the 240V panel in Europe when I get back stateside all I would have to change is the power chord. Is that correct?

Yup.

We also have 230V pumps here: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/pumps-parts

Quote:
Finally, having used utilized the same general design for years does anyone on the forum have any upgrades or modernizations to recommend?

Nope. Part of the reason for standardizing on common readily available parts is that it ensure you have a panel that you can use and maintain for life. See: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/FAQ#Does_your_brewery_use_any_special_or_proprietary_parts_

Cheers!

Kal

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