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30A Control Panel (240V only, for int'l use)
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lef_fussiger




Joined: 30 Jun 2016
Posts: 3



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:03 am    Post subject: Definite Purpose Contactor Reply with quote


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Tks for the answer Kal...

Can I to use this http://www.ebay.com/itm/321360749176 instead of this 30A/240V DPDT or DPST relay with 220V AC coil?

How this change works?

Could you show me wiring diagram using the Definite Purpose Contactor?

Tks...

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Leandro Fussiger
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:20 am    Post subject: Re: Definite Purpose Contactor Reply with quote

lef_fussiger wrote:

Can I to use this http://www.ebay.com/itm/321360749176 instead of this 30A/240V DPDT or DPST relay with 220V AC coil?
How this change works? Could you show me wiring diagram using the Definite Purpose Contactor?

Hi Leandro. With hundreds of brewers emailing me questions daily I'm afraid I simply do not have the time to look up parts for people and draw new wiring diagrams. Sorry!

If you're finding it hard to find parts or are unsure how to know if substitutions would work, we can sell you the parts you need, guaranteed to work for you. Entire kits made for 220-240V countries are available as well. Contact us at sales@TheElectricBrewery.com or see our control panel order page here: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/control-panels

Cheers,

Kal

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My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lef_fussiger




Joined: 30 Jun 2016
Posts: 3



PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tks Kal, but this's a problem, import from Canada is very expencive...China is very cheap...

The link above:
Hvacstar SA-2P-30A-240V Definite Purpose Contactor 2 Poles 30FLA 240V AC Coil

I just know if this Contactor can be used in place of relay....

Tks...

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Leandro Fussiger
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as the specs are the same, it'll work. If you follow the link to the relay in the instructions you'll go here where these specs are listed:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/30A-240V-DPDT-or-DPST-relay-with-220-240V-AC-coil

Good luck!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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adamrduley




Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

My well travelled panel (started in the US with 120v coils/lights/..., moved to France and replaced everything to run off 240v) is now back in the US and i plan to leave all my 240v widgets as is. To do this, i'm planning on just hooking my 120v Hot black wire to my hot bus, my other 120v red wire to my neutral bus, connecting neutral incoming wire to ground bus, and not connecting (?) the incoming ground wire to the ground bus. Thus, i should get my proper 240v differential necessary to run all my components.

So my confusion here is what to do with the neutral/ground wires with my 240v components. Would appreciate any advice on this.

thanks,
Adam
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Adam,

Ground should always be connected to the panel enclosure, backplane, kettles, and so forth. For safety reasons. NEVER bond the NEUTRAL to GROUND other than in your primary electrical panel (where your breakers are). Bonding anywhere else (such as in the control panel or an electrical sub-panel) should not be done.

You may certainly build a 240V panel using only 240V parts and use it in the US. You simply would not hook up or use the NEUTRAL at all as you don't need 120V. GROUND should be connected however.

Note that 240V pumps are harder to find here, hence the reason we use both 120V and 240V in the North American design.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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adamrduley




Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the quick response!! I was oscillating between whether to use the NEUTRAL or GROUND as my Control Panel ground. Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, in my electrical SPA disconnect sub-panel i have NEUTRAL and GROUND separate -- not bonded. As you said, bonding should only be in the main breaker.

Thanks
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adamrduley




Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking about this more, doesnt the GFCI breaker use the neutral wire as its point of reference for detecting leaky current? Am i losing any protection/functionality of the GFCI breaker by not using the neutral? I do have all my old 120v components still that i could go back to using if there is any safety benefit.
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GFIs can work without NEUTRAL. Lots of hot tubs are 240V only (2 HOTs and a GROUND) and must be GFI'ed.

Kal

_________________
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We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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adamrduley




Joined: 02 Feb 2011
Posts: 4



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal -- excellent info

For those interested, i did some research after Kal said GFIs can work without a NEUTRAL. Here is an excellent explaination why:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=126277&page=2
Quote:
A GFCI device works by comparing the total current, algebraically speaking, through all of a circuit's conductors. If all of the current being supplied through any conductor is being matched, or returned, through the other conductor(s), the net total current is zero.

This is accomplished by passing all of the circuit conductors through a ferrous ring which has a small coil wrapped aorung one side. As long as all of the currents match, no magnetism is developed in the ring, and no voltage is developed in the small coil.

Added: This is basically the same theory as why we want conductors of every phase in a metallic conduit: so the net current will be zero and not heat the conduit. The currents of each wire need not match for this to work, only that the total algebraically adds to zero.

If someone is getting a shock, that means that the current flowing through their body is flowing from the source, through one hot wire, but is returning to the source through a pathway other than another wire, meaning through the earth or another grounded, conductive surface.

The difference in conductor currents means there is now a sum of other than zero current, which creates a magnetism in the ring and a voltage in the small coil, which is amplified, and trips the GFCI mechanism when the detected current exceeds about 5 milliamps (5/1000 of an amp).

So, the very practice which makes the GFCI necessary, grounding one conductor of our supply, is also necessary for it to function. Whether there is one or more hot wires, or whether the grounded conductor is required by the load, don't matter. It only matters that some current is getting around the ring.
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hambräu




Joined: 07 Jun 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Hamburg - Germany


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, I am New here and from Europe Germany so use the 220v.
I have a question concerning L and N wire coming out of my socket and which will power my control Panel.

If I wire the control Panel as described here, does it matter where I put at the 220v input L (hot) and N (neutral)?

As I can turn my socket how does it influence the control panel?

Thanks for any help on my question. I am really looking forward to start building that nice control panel.

Cheers
Jan
(Hambräu - http://hambraeu.de)
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hambräu wrote:
I have a question concerning L and N wire coming out of my socket and which will power my control Panel.
If I wire the control Panel as described here, does it matter where I put at the 220v input L (hot) and N (neutral)?

Yes - live and neutral should be properly connected. Live in the panel should be connected to the live connection in the wall while neutral in the panel should be connected to the neutral in the wall. While technically it may be able to 'work' with the two reversed, that should not be done for safety reasons.

Quote:
As I can turn my socket how does it influence the control panel?

You should not be able to turn the wall plug as it should have 3 spades: live, neutral, and ground. Because there needs to be 3 connection points the plug can only be plugged in one way.

Welcome to the forum Jan and good luck with your build! If you're interested in a complete control panel kit with all the parts please let us know. We have pre-punched and professionally powder coated enclosures available too.

Cheers,

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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hambräu




Joined: 07 Jun 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Hamburg - Germany


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much Kal for your additional information.

Cheers
Jan
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rivetcatcher




Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 132
Location: Thailand

Drinking: Way Out Wheat - Mindcircus

Working on: Zombie Dust


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hambräu wrote:
Hello, I am New here and from Europe Germany so use the 220v.
I have a question concerning L and N wire coming out of my socket and which will power my control Panel.

If I wire the control Panel as described here, does it matter where I put at the 220v input L (hot) and N (neutral)?

As I can turn my socket how does it influence the control panel?

(Hambräu - http://hambraeu.de)


Hello Hambrau,

I think I know what you are saying and please don't confuse your standard wall socket / plug with what needs to be used on the electric brewery.

You need to install a new socket outlet which is capable of carrying a higher current. In my case it was a 32A outlet.... not a standard domestic outlet. I think when you say you can turn your plug you are talking about a 2 prong plug which, as an example, may be attached to a TV etc.

DO NOT built a panel and use this type of plug. You need to ensure your socket and cables are all correctly rated. This will require a qualified electrician installing the socket outlet and sufficiently rated cable - 6mm2.

Hope this clears up your confusion.
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hambräu




Joined: 07 Jun 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Hamburg - Germany


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your answer. I will only use a 3500W external heating which than
results in 15A.
I have a further questions, why is there a fuse with only 7A, what is that fuse protecting?

Thanks
Jan (hambräu)
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rivetcatcher




Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 132
Location: Thailand

Drinking: Way Out Wheat - Mindcircus

Working on: Zombie Dust


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hambräu wrote:
Thanks for your answer. I will only use a 3500W external heating which than
results in 15A.
I have a further questions, why is there a fuse with only 7A, what is that fuse protecting?

Thanks
Jan (hambräu)

That is the circuit for the lamps, PIDS etc.

Im not sure what the domestic plugs / sockets etc are rated for in Germany. The UK is 13A. So make sure whatever sockets / plugs you use are rated accordingly. It is also very important that you use a 3 pronged plug with an earth. The panel MUST be earthed.

Rivet
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rivet is correct: The 7A fuse is for the low current device circuit that powers the lights, timer, PIDs, etc. The fuse is actually to protect the 15a wiring, mostly in the case that there's an issue with the external pumps or someone plugs a high current device into a pump outlet (we've had some commercial brewers do this).

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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View user's photo album (21 photos)
hambräu




Joined: 07 Jun 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Hamburg - Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi and thanks for any additional help I can get here.
If I use an Amperemeter with that ferrit ring where the hot wire L will
Go through, which wire (L) do I Need to use from my panel
To measure the current correctly?

I will not have this shunt.

Thanks and Cheers
Jan
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rivetcatcher




Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 132
Location: Thailand

Drinking: Way Out Wheat - Mindcircus

Working on: Zombie Dust


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hambräu wrote:
Hi and thanks for any additional help I can get here.
If I use an Amperemeter with that ferrit ring where the hot wire L will
Go through, which wire (L) do I Need to use from my panel
To measure the current correctly?

I will not have this shunt.

Thanks and Cheers
Jan

I used the same type and had to extend the cable for the current transformer (the small ring) so that it would reach the (L) on the main supply. So the place to connect, if looking at the diagram on the first page will be on the 10 gauge cable between the "Power In Relay" and the "Hot" receptacle.
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hambräu




Joined: 07 Jun 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Hamburg - Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

time to show some photos from my panel build so far:

I use (Germany) 220V with max 16A, ok with my 3500W induction heater.



IMG_8024.JPG
 Description:
CEE 220V/16A input right blue. Placeholders for 220/16A sockets for pumps and heater. Left: Temp probes with M12 socket.
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IMG_8024.JPG



IMG_8023.JPG
 Description:
 Filesize:  107.43 KB
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IMG_8023.JPG



IMG_8022.JPG
 Description:
I use a combined Amp/Voltmeter which runs with 220V so no need for an extra Trafo. I use one only for the 12V which is used by a little fan inside.
 Filesize:  90.16 KB
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IMG_8022.JPG


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