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30A Control Panel (240V only, for int'l use)
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Hi Karsten,

Correct - in some countries having 30A single phase is probably next to impossible. This would require more than just changing a few words however - it's a completely different build. What suggestion did you have on how to change the wording slightly?

Kal

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tae




Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36



PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: FAQ: Adapting for 220-240V countries Reply with quote

tae wrote:
The relay must use a 240V coil instead of 120V. Countries with 220-240V power all use different 30 amp wall electrical outlet.........


I am not sure ALL countries with 220-240V power use 30 amp wall electrical outlets. I am not familiar with which, but I believe both Norway, Denmark and Sweden all have max. 16 Amp.

Maybe it's splitting hairs ?'

Either way... I love the panel you designed. Your guides and "how to's" keep impressing me. It must have taken forever putting it all together, especially with the details you put into everything. The only thing that bothers me is, that our power supply here in Denmark doesn't really support the panel and i REALLY WANT ONE!

Another thing..... your basement! It'a going to be a challenge for my marriage cause I WANT ONE OF THOSE TOO, but I dont think my wife understands how much i need one..... Smile Smile Smile
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah! Ok - Thanks for the suggestions. I've made a slight change: "Countries with 220-240V power all use ..." to "Countries with 220-240V power may use ...".

Kal

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barney the bear




Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do not have to make a complete redesign to use 3-phase. The main changes are 3-phase contactors instead of relays, 3-phase SSR or one SSR for each phase and other receptacles with three hots, one neutral and one ground.

The control functions, for example the coils in the the contactors still use 220-240V. The two extra phases may only be used to "fire" the 3-phase elements.

An 3-phase element is actually three elements in one. You can wire these elements in two ways - "wye"-configuration or "delta".

With "wye" each of the three parts in the element runs on 230V. Here you use the neutral. Lets say for example this is an element that takes 10A for each part. You will get 6 900 W (230*10*3).

With "delta" the same element is wired without using neutral and it becomes one element that runs on 400V and takes 52A.
You will get 20 800W with the same element. The mathematics here is that you multiply the voltage and also the amps with the square root of 3. That is the effect you will get when you put the three different phases together.

This also means that an 3-phase element that takes 10A in each part is a little bit too much when running on 400V (17A/phase) when only 16A/phase is available.

One disavantage with 400V is that also the watt-density will be three times higher. This is probably not a problem when only heating water.

One advantage with 3-phase is that you do not need very "fat" wires for higher effect. With 400V and 52A you only need wires for 17A.
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Taranakiterror




Joined: 29 Sep 2015
Posts: 1



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quick question guys, I'm in the initial phase of my setup and just getting my head around everything. I live in New Zealand and the electrical side of things (amps volts watts etc) is confusing as anything to me.
I am looking at building my setup piece by piece and figure the conversion from propane to electric is a good first step in my quest to go fully automated.. My house only has 10 amp power sockets and I believe my cooktop has 16amp limit.
I was looking at 2 camco 5500 watt elements pre assembled but am afraid that these will trip the board? Beat case scenario and it doesn't I imagine least the kind of power I will be getting from them will be very low.
I know there are some kiwis out there... Any advice would be hugely appreciated
Cheers
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tae




Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming you have 230 volt out there, you will only be able to get 230v x 16A= 3680 watt out of that one 16A socket. Not enough for your 5500 watt Camco. Provided that your cables running into the house are big enough you might be able to get an electrician to install a larger fuse?
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taranakiterror wrote:
My house only has 10 amp power sockets and I believe my cooktop has 16amp limit.
I was looking at 2 camco 5500 watt elements pre assembled but am afraid that these will trip the board?

Correct. A 5500W element running at 240V will draw 22.9 amp, slightly less if you have 230V.

Kal

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Funkalizer




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 11



PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This might not be the correct place for the question but then again, as a 220-240V reference, it might be the perfect location.

Fans...

The Vortex fans used in your build, Kal, are 115 volts and cannot be used in 220-240V countries without jumping some major hurdles.
Does anyone have some ideas on which fans to use in our part of the world?
I did find a local retailer that sells VKMz fans but they seem to be lacking, somewhat, in throughput unless you get a really big one.

If they are "steam proof", I've no idea.

So...
If you live in a 220-240V country and are using a ventilation fan, which one are you using?
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joe89




Joined: 27 Feb 2015
Posts: 17
Location: Yorkshire, UK


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a link to the fan I am going to be using. I haven't got around to using it yet but I'm sure it will be more than adequate.

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/710-53481-19255-0/1?ff3=4&pub=5574906687&toolid=10001&campid=5336652980&customid=&mpre=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fitm%2F281194327735%3Ful_noapp%3Dtrue

(Link tweaked to support our website at no additional cost to you - we thank you!)
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funkalizer wrote:
This might not be the correct place for the question but then again, as a 220-240V reference, it might be the perfect location.

This is a perfect place to ask! Unfortunately I don't have any experience with 240V varieties so I can't offer any suggestions. Hopefully some others (like Joe) will chime in with fans that they've purchased and have worked well for them.

If you like, you can search Amazon.co.uk here for 6" inline fans and support our website at the same time (at no additional cost to you - Thanks! Wink ):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=as_li_ss_tl?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1634&creative=19450&field-keywords=6%20inch%20inline%20duct%20fan&linkCode=ur2&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3A6%20inch%20inline%20duct%20fan&tag=theelectricbrewery-21&url=search-alias%3Daps

Good luck!

Kal

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jarmor




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 4
Location: Oslo, Norway


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kal. I'm about to finally order some stuff Smile Quick question. With only hot, ground and neutral available can I still use the Nema L14-30 male receptacle for power in?

Thanks.

/Jarle

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jarmor




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 4
Location: Oslo, Norway


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disregard last transmission. Found the answer in the faq Smile

/Jarle

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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For others: Yup - you can. Just don't use one of the spades.

Kal

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emmerson




Joined: 02 Nov 2015
Posts: 1



PostLink    Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:21 am    Post subject: Simple wiring diagram suggestions Reply with quote

Currently researching a simple PID controller which controls an element and pump for a HLT. I've seen a few panels which have DIN mounted circuit breakers for the various load items, which looks cleaner and seem safer. However, its unclear when one should use a double pole or single switch/breaker, or just a fuse? Anyway would appreciate some feedback on the placement of the various components. [/img]


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barney the bear




Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Simple wiring diagram suggestions Reply with quote

emmerson wrote:
Currently researching a simple PID controller which controls an element and pump for a HLT. I've seen a few panels which have DIN mounted circuit breakers for the various load items, which looks cleaner and seem safer. However, its unclear when one should use a double pole or single switch/breaker, or just a fuse? Anyway would appreciate some feedback on the placement of the various components. [/img]


I do not like the idea using DIN-mounted circuit breakers inside a box with one door where you cannot see them or/and reach them without opening the door. Usually these breakers are mounted in an enclosure with a separate door you can see through. You can only come in contact with the circuit breakers for switching when you need that. You cannot for security reasons come in contact with the wiring.
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itsnotrequired




Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 177
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no worries with mounting the circuit breakers inside the panel, it is done all the time. having them not 'readily accessible' would only be an issue if you were using the circuit breakers for switching action (e.g. regularly turning them off and on). breakers have the advantage over fuses in that they can easily be reset if they trip, as opposed to fuses which need to be completely replaced if they blow. for circuits with two hot conductors, you'll definitely want two-pole circuit breakers.
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barney the bear




Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

itsnotrequired wrote:
no worries with mounting the circuit breakers inside the panel, it is done all the time. having them not 'readily accessible' would only be an issue if you were using the circuit breakers for switching action (e.g. regularly turning them off and on). breakers have the advantage over fuses in that they can easily be reset if they trip, as opposed to fuses which need to be completely replaced if they blow. for circuits with two hot conductors, you'll definitely want two-pole circuit breakers.


The mounting with a separate "door" you can see through which I described above is actually used (at least where I live) for circuit breakers instead of fuses so they are "readily accessible" for resetting without the possibility to accidentally come in contact powered wiring. It is not allowed here to mount them another way.

What type of circuit breakers are not used as switches or instead of fuses and do not need to be readily accessible?
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itsnotrequired




Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 177
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

barney the bear wrote:
itsnotrequired wrote:
no worries with mounting the circuit breakers inside the panel, it is done all the time. having them not 'readily accessible' would only be an issue if you were using the circuit breakers for switching action (e.g. regularly turning them off and on). breakers have the advantage over fuses in that they can easily be reset if they trip, as opposed to fuses which need to be completely replaced if they blow. for circuits with two hot conductors, you'll definitely want two-pole circuit breakers.


The mounting with a separate "door" you can see through which I described above is actually used (at least where I live) for circuit breakers instead of fuses so they are "readily accessible" for resetting without the possibility to accidentally come in contact powered wiring. It is not allowed here to mount them another way.

What type of circuit breakers are not used as switches or instead of fuses and do not need to be readily accessible?


ah, just noticed you are in sweden. here in the states, circuit breakers are rarely used as switching devices. for example, lights in a house are turned on and off with a snap switch on the wall, not with a circuit breaker at the panelboard. circuit breakers are typically only switched off if someone wants to work on the circuit (e.g. add a receptacle, replace a switch, etc.) panelboards are of deadfront construction, so it is possible to operate all the breakers without having to be exposed to live parts.

for a brewery panel (or any other type of industrial control panel), the breakers are only there for short circuit and overcurrent protection. breakers should not be tripping at any sort of regular frequency so it is rare to have to go into an energized panel to reset a circuit breaker.
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barney the bear




Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="itsnotrequired]
ah, just noticed you are in sweden. here in the states, circuit breakers are rarely used as switching devices. for example, lights in a house are turned on and off with a snap switch on the wall, not with a circuit breaker at the panelboard. circuit breakers are typically only switched off if someone wants to work on the circuit (e.g. add a receptacle, replace a switch, etc.) panelboards are of deadfront construction, so it is possible to operate all the breakers without having to be exposed to live parts.

for a brewery panel (or any other type of industrial control panel), the breakers are only there for short circuit and overcurrent protection. breakers should not be tripping at any sort of regular frequency so it is rare to have to go into an energized panel to reset a circuit breaker.[/quote]

The same here, not different from the states - Circuit breakers are rarely used as switching decices...etc.
But I prefer fuses that can be changed from the outside. I must confess that the main reason for me besides security is that my control box is screwed together and has no door to open. I use DIN-mount in the box for relays, busses etc. In the future when we change to three-phase in the house maybe it will be more suitable with three-pole circuit breakers than fuses.
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cleber




Joined: 30 Nov 2015
Posts: 2
Location: Finland


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

barney the bear wrote:
Hello

I live in Sweden, not a 220-240V-country but more of a 230/400V-3-phase-country!

In a modern home here you will not find a 230V 30A wall outlet. Mostly there are a lot of 10A and a few 16A BUT a 3-phase 16A for the stove in the kitchen and maybe one in the garage or the cellar if you live in a house of your own.

That means the cable to the 3-phase-outlet have 5 leaders, 3 for each phase 230V, one neutral and one ground. If you measure the voltage between a phase and neutral it is 230V BUT between one phase and another it is 400V (!).

This gives you some advantages. An example: A 50A 240V outlet can give you 12000W for an element with one "loop". A 3-phase outlet with 16A on each phase (230V) can give you 11040W (48A) with an element with three "loops". In that case each phase "feeds" its "own loop" (phase and neutral).

But if you put all the phases together so they "feed" all the "loops" together the voltage is 400V and 48A gives you 19200W (!). In this case you do not use the neutral.

I think the ElectricBrewery-equipment need some more changes if you want to use all the possibilities over here.



I live in Finland, which as far as I can see have the same electrical setup as Sweden.

At home I only have 10A and 16A outlets (and a 20A for the stove, that I'll probably leave alone).

I got 2 5500W Camco elements (HLT and Copper) however would like to limit the changes to the electrical circuits in the house), is there a way to limit the power those elements draw so I can use then on my 16A circuits? I only plan on doing 20L batches and I'm ok on waiting a little longer for things to heat (the GrainFather uses a 2000W element, if I can run my element on 3500W I should still be better).

I also have a small warehouse I rent where I have access to one of those 3-phase-outlets (400V) but have no idea on how the electric circuits would look like to use that (is it even possible to use the Camco's with that? I believe it only has one 'loop'?)

My plan is to go on this on phases, first get the kettles running on 'manual' with just the mechanical relays and switches connected to the elements (controlling the temps manually as I'm used to do), then add the controllers/SSRs and eventually build the whole control panel.
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