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30A Control Panel (240V only, for int'l use)
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AlfA01




Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
Location: Greece


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:38 pm    Post subject: 30A Relay with 220/240V Coil Help Reply with quote


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I live overseas and am gathering parts to build my control panel, which will be linked to a BIAC system similar to Braumeister.

I'm having a little trouble getting the relays I need in the proper configuration. Does anyone in Europe have a site or link to order the recommended relays for HLT, MLT Boil and POWER IN relays? In my Internet searches of eBay, Amazon, etc., I'm finding relays with DC coils.

Any help is appreciated.

Cheers,
Dan
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 30A Relay with 220/240V Coil Help Reply with quote

AlfA01 wrote:
I'm having a little trouble getting the relays I need in the proper configuration. Does anyone in Europe have a site or link to order the recommended relays for HLT, MLT Boil and POWER IN relays? In my Internet searches of eBay, Amazon, etc., I'm finding relays with DC coils.

This one from our links works:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IWJG7HG/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00IWJG7HG&linkCode=as2&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=4I34EQRKOCGIQC6Z

But it's Amazon.com. You'd have to use a forwarder like shipito.com (which incidentally works very well - I've used them a lot including for my own brewery build).

Kal

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barney the bear




Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an example from the German internet shop Conrad. I have bought two for my setup. They are rated for 16A and should be mounted on a DIN mounting rail. Therefore you also need a "side element" to put between the relay cards and the mounting rail.

If you actually need a 30A power relay there is an example of this too. The 50 liter Braumeister needs only 16A and the bigger Braumeisters, 200 and 500 liter, runs on 3-phase 230/400V with 16A or 32A on each phase.

Conrad has a lot of electronic stuff so you can probably find exactly what you need there.

http://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/503334/230Vac-SPDT-CO-Relay-Board-With-Omron-G2R-1-E-230V-Relay-Terminals-Signal-LED

http://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/741063/Phoenix-Contact-2970442-Polyamide-Din-Rail-Mount-Enclosure-UMK-Green

http://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/503157/Finder-668282300300-30A-Flange-Mount-Power-Relay-230Vac-2-NO-DPST-NO?ref=searchDetail
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AlfA01




Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
Location: Greece


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

barney the bear wrote:
This is an example from the German internet shop Conrad. I have bought two for my setup. They are rated for 16A and should be mounted on a DIN mounting rail. Therefore you also need a "side element" to put between the relay cards and the mounting rail.

If you actually need a 30A power relay there is an example of this too. The 50 liter Braumeister needs only 16A and the bigger Braumeisters, 200 and 500 liter, runs on 3-phase 230/400V with 16A or 32A on each phase.

Conrad has a lot of electronic stuff so you can probably find exactly what you need there.

http://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/503334/230Vac-SPDT-CO-Relay-Board-With-Omron-G2R-1-E-230V-Relay-Terminals-Signal-LED

http://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/741063/Phoenix-Contact-2970442-Polyamide-Din-Rail-Mount-Enclosure-UMK-Green

http://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/503157/Finder-668282300300-30A-Flange-Mount-Power-Relay-230Vac-2-NO-DPST-NO?ref=searchDetail


Barney,

Thanks for the info! This is the type of site I was looking for. I'm looking at building a Braumeister style with a 200L kettle. I have to do the math and figure what my malt pipe will displace in order to determine my overall batch size. I have a 70L boil kettle that I am planning to modify into a malt pipe. At any rate, I have available two 5500W 220V elements and one 4500W 220V element.

I am thinking of going the 3-phase route, but wanted to speak with my electrician first before getting too far into the planning stages. Right now I'm resourcing parts and trying to find the most reasonable shipping rates for the items I'll need.

Thanks again.

Cheers,
Dan

BTW: have you built a BIAC system?
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AlfA01




Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
Location: Greece


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 30A Relay with 220/240V Coil Help Reply with quote

kal wrote:
AlfA01 wrote:
I'm having a little trouble getting the relays I need in the proper configuration. Does anyone in Europe have a site or link to order the recommended relays for HLT, MLT Boil and POWER IN relays? In my Internet searches of eBay, Amazon, etc., I'm finding relays with DC coils.

This one from our links works:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IWJG7HG/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00IWJG7HG&linkCode=as2&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=4I34EQRKOCGIQC6Z

But it's Amazon.com. You'd have to use a forwarder like shipito.com (which incidentally works very well - I've used them a lot including for my own brewery build).

Kal


Hi Kal!

Thanks for the link. That's the perfect piece, but I'm trying to avoid getting hit with any extraneous import costs. I ordered a small solar panel for an RV water pump which cost $82 USD, now I'm getting hit for like 80 Euros at customs including a broker fee?!?!?!

Cheers,
Dan

Update Edit:

I was able to locate the relays that I needed locally. A new store opened recently in Athens and I had not gone in to see what they had available. I was recently in Athens and stopped in to take a look and they had exactly what I needed.

Cheers and thanks for the help.


Last edited by AlfA01 on Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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Stu79




Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 4
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:58 pm    Post subject: Relays??? Reply with quote

Im just curious as to why a Relay has been used after the SSR instead of a 12vdc switch between the PID and the SSR? Wouldn't this still work but reduce the components and wiring?
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barney the bear




Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlfA01 wrote:

BTW: have you built a BIAC system?


No, I am building a HERMS just now. I have seen more interresting (and probably cheaper) solutions. In the German forum hobbybrauer.de I read about a creative idea - a sort of RIMS/BIAB setup without a pump. Or - actually - it is a big pump itself!


http://hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name=eBoard&file=viewthread&fid=14&tid=22209&page=1&orderdate=ASC
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: Relays??? Reply with quote

Stu79 wrote:
Im just curious as to why a Relay has been used after the SSR instead of a 12vdc switch between the PID and the SSR? Wouldn't this still work but reduce the components and wiring?

I'm not sure what you mean or how that would work. There's no 12VDC signals in the control panel.
Draw up a new wiring diagram for what you mean and we'll let you know if it'll work.

Kal

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Stu79




Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 4
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kal

I thought the Output from the PID to the SSR is 12VDC??

Then if you added a switch between the two you could isolate the element from heating up without having to wire in another relay.

Just a thought..

Thanks
Stu
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah! I see what you mean now. So yes, the PIDs have a low voltage DC output to drive the SSR. I'm still not sure what you mean by replacing the relay with 12VDC switch. The relays are used to completely mechanically isolate the outputs if the elements are meant to be off instead of relying on the PID/SSR combination. Take a look at our build instructions to better understand why. If you provide a schematic or wiring diagram of what you want to do we can explain if there are any issues with your idea.

Kal

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Stu79




Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 4
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what I was thinking then one could omit the need for the Relays after the SSR.. Possibly..


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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stu79 wrote:
This is what I was thinking then one could omit the need for the Relays after the SSR.. Possibly..

See the "how it works" section here of our build instructions:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=13

Your solution doesn't help with physically disconnecting the heating elements from the power source. SSRs tend to fail closed so even if your switches were turned off, if an SSR failed, power would flow to the heating element. It's always best to physically disconnect as close to the receptacle as possible. Your solution is too far removed and assumes the SSR works correctly. There's also leakage current through SSRs so it's never truly disconnected. One HOT side of the heating element would always be connected with your solution too so it's not truly disconnected.

So long story short, it's not a very safe solution. I would not recommend it. Sorry!
You're only putting a switch on the control side, no different than what the PID already does.

Kal

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Stu79




Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 4
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep all makes perfect sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

Stu
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problems - good luck!

Kal

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We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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barney the bear




Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
It's always best to physically disconnect as close to the receptacle as possible.

Kal


Kal does not mention the interlock funktion - one further step to security.

I have accomplished a sort of that in a simple way without any special relay .

In my control-setup (HERMS) I have one PID (Auber SWA 2451 with built-in timer), SSR for that and a DSPR (Auber Digital Power Regulator). This one also with SSR. There are also two pumps connected to the box.

There is no power relay but a main power switch "in the beginning". For each of these four units there is a relay (2-pole -hot and neutral are switched).

For each unit there is one ON-button and one OFF-button. The switches have momentary function. The ON-switches are NO (normally open) - illuminated -and the OFF-switches are NC (normally closed).

The switches are wired this way:

The ON-switch (NO) is connected to the HOT on the control-side of the relay. When you push the ON-button the relay closes. Normally should the relay open again if you release the pressure on the button (momentary function) - BUT - here is now a connection between the HOT on the control side and the HOT on the output side of the relay . The connection goes via the OFF-switch (normally closed). That means that the relay does not open when you release the pressure from the ON-button because the relay is now "feeding itself".

When you push the OFF-button the connection is broken. The control side of the relay loose power and the relay opens. This also happens if the power is lost in another way, for example if a plug is pulled out.

The security function is that you always have to push the ON-button to get power to the units. With only a switch can for example the switch to an element in a empty kettle be on when you put on the main power.
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AlfA01




Joined: 01 Jun 2015
Posts: 14
Location: Greece


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

barney the bear wrote:
AlfA01 wrote:

BTW: have you built a BIAC system?


No, I am building a HERMS just now. I have seen more interresting (and probably cheaper) solutions. In the German forum hobbybrauer.de I read about a creative idea - a sort of RIMS/BIAB setup without a pump. Or - actually - it is a big pump itself!


http://hobbybrauer.de/modules.php?name=eBoard&file=viewthread&fid=14&tid=22209&page=1&orderdate=ASC


I took a look at the link. Pretty ingenious design there. I wonder what the clarity of the wort is like. I can't read the forum to see if they mention how the finished product came out.

My design is BIAC with a RIMS tube. I plan to circulate the wort through the RIMS and fire the 4500W element to maintain mash temps only. In order to avoid scorching I can fire one of the 5500W elements, which will have no contact with the malt, to step the mash temps. Once I've reached to desired temp, I'll once again fire the RIMS element to hold a consistent mash temp.

I bought three elements and am considering running this on 3-phase, as my time-to-boil calculations for the amount of liquid in the tank (150l+/-) would be reduced to half by being able to run the two 5500W elements for the boil. However, I do lose the convenience of being mobile by going this route, but that doesn't really bother me so much. I will most probably setup a small 3-gallon batch unit for mobile brewing later on. The big unit is to produce enough volume to supply a summer only beach bar at the hotel our family owns.

Time-to-boil calculator link: http://www.phpdoc.info/brew/boilcalc.html

If I mash out at 170F and fire the two 5500W elements, the time-to-boil is about 23 minutes. With only one element firing, the time is something like 47-50 minutes.

Cheers,
AlfA01
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gunzy




Joined: 25 Jul 2015
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal,

In your North American diagram, you have the 2 hot wires going into both sides of the power-in DPDT relay. In the International version you have 1 hot(live) and 1 neutral going into the power-in DPDT. Why does 1 require going into the DPDT and the other does not?

Is it necessary to connect the neutral wire into the DPDT on the International version or can it go straight to the Neutral Bus like in the North American version? If this were the case, do I still a DPDT or can it be something else?

Millan
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gunzy wrote:
In your North American diagram, you have the 2 hot wires going into both sides of the power-in DPDT relay. In the International version you have 1 hot(live) and 1 neutral going into the power-in DPDT. Why does 1 require going into the DPDT and the other does not?

I'm afraid that's not entirely correct. Both setups have both wires going through the DPDT power in relay. In the case of the North American version it's both HOT lines, in the case of the 240V only version it's the HOT and the NEUTRAL lines. End result is the same.

Quote:
Is it necessary to connect the neutral wire into the DPDT on the International version or can it go straight to the Neutral Bus like in the North American version? If this were the case, do I still a DPDT or can it be something else?

Wire exactly per the wiring diagrams.

Kal

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gunzy




Joined: 25 Jul 2015
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:

I'm afraid that's not entirely correct. Both setups have both wires going through the DPDT power in relay. In the case of the North American version it's both HOT lines, in the case of the 240V only version it's the HOT and the NEUTRAL lines. End result is the same.



Cool, I was confused in that the N.A. version didn't need the Neutral wire to go through a relay (i.e. an 3P3T relay), but that the International version did.

Millan
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tae




Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36



PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: FAQ: Adapting for 220-240V countries Reply with quote

The relay must use a 240V coil instead of 120V. Countries with 220-240V power all use different 30 amp wall electrical outlets so detailed instructions on which wire is HOT and NEUTRAL cannot be provided. For this reason the exact connection points to use on the 30A/240V power in receptacle are not shown in the diagram blow. Instead, I only label what the wire is for (HOT or NEUTRAL). It is up to the user to ensure that the wires connect up correctly to their wall electrical outlet.



Kal,

Just to avoid confusion may I suggest that you change the wording above slightly. Not alle countries with 220-240V power has 30 amp wall outlets. Here in Denmark the most common is 10 Amp, and 16 Amp for oven, stoves, bathtubs etc. Unless i am way off here this limits us to build more than a 16 Amp panel unless going three phase, and as you have mentioned that requires different wiring.

Kind regards
Karsten
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