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Ozarks Mountain Brew
Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 737
Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri
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 Link Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:10 am Post subject: |
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there is 2 hots a ground/neutral and a ground to earth not one hot and one neutral and a ground, the 2 hots need to run through the relay together
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barryhannah
Joined: 09 Feb 2014
Posts: 48
Location: Whangaparaoa, New Zealand
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| Link Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| bazfletch3 wrote: | | why does the neutral feed loop to the relay prior to feeding the neutral bus? We're only switching the active/hot arent we?) |
Hi Bazfletch3, just getting my head around this also, and I note your post was from a while back so you've probably moved on, but the neutral goes to the relay before the bus, because it has to go to the relay seperately from the bus anway (the relay handles the big load, the bus carries the light load). I think it's safer to double off to the neutral bus from the relay pole than it is to double off from the inlet pole.
Make sense?
@todhend that's a bit misleading mate, this post is about 240V ONLY implementations, where there is only 3 wires (hot, neutral, ground). No two hots. A hot and a neutral run through the relay.
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LR-Electrick
Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 4
Location: HK
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| Link Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 8:14 am Post subject: |
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For those who are adapting their breweries to 240V, I would suggest against using the standard 3 pin fused uk plug for various reasons.
Follow the instructions and instead procure an Industrial Male Plug 240V 32A-6h. They are cheap, splash proof, and provide a tight and snug fit in the corresponding industrial socket.
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barney the bear
Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden
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| Link Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Hello
I live in Sweden, not a 220-240V-country but more of a 230/400V-3-phase-country!
In a modern home here you will not find a 230V 30A wall outlet. Mostly there are a lot of 10A and a few 16A BUT a 3-phase 16A for the stove in the kitchen and maybe one in the garage or the cellar if you live in a house of your own.
That means the cable to the 3-phase-outlet have 5 leaders, 3 for each phase 230V, one neutral and one ground. If you measure the voltage between a phase and neutral it is 230V BUT between one phase and another it is 400V (!).
This gives you some advantages. An example: A 50A 240V outlet can give you 12000W for an element with one "loop". A 3-phase outlet with 16A on each phase (230V) can give you 11040W (48A) with an element with three "loops". In that case each phase "feeds" its "own loop" (phase and neutral).
But if you put all the phases together so they "feed" all the "loops" together the voltage is 400V and 48A gives you 19200W (!). In this case you do not use the neutral.
I think the ElectricBrewery-equipment need some more changes if you want to use all the possibilities over here.
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gurraBbeer
Joined: 13 Jan 2015
Posts: 1
Location: Stockholm
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| Link Posted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| barney the bear wrote: | Hello
I live in Sweden, not a 220-240V-country but more of a 230/400V-3-phase-country!
In a modern home here you will not find a 230V 30A wall outlet. Mostly there are a lot of 10A and a few 16A BUT a 3-phase 16A for the stove in the kitchen and maybe one in the garage or the cellar if you live in a house of your own.
That means the cable to the 3-phase-outlet have 5 leaders, 3 for each phase 230V, one neutral and one ground. If you measure the voltage between a phase and neutral it is 230V BUT between one phase and another it is 400V (!).
This gives you some advantages. An example: A 50A 240V outlet can give you 12000W for an element with one "loop". A 3-phase outlet with 16A on each phase (230V) can give you 11040W (48A) with an element with three "loops". In that case each phase "feeds" its "own loop" (phase and neutral).
But if you put all the phases together so they "feed" all the "loops" together the voltage is 400V and 48A gives you 19200W (!). In this case you do not use the neutral.
I think the ElectricBrewery-equipment need some more changes if you want to use all the possibilities over here. |
Hey Barney the bear!
I live in sweden as well, and not being an expert on electricity I have a few questions... however, luckily for me, it sounds like you are one:) would you mind if I PM you with all my stupid questions? 
Cheers!
Patrik
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Gurthnar
Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Posts: 12
Location: Slovakia, Bratislava
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Gurthnar
Joined: 25 Jan 2015
Posts: 12
Location: Slovakia, Bratislava
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| Link Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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OK, nevermind, I already found my mistake.
The 7A fuse would not work that way. The wiring would have to be different and I might as well do it your way, it seems less complicated.
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jarmor
Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 4
Location: Oslo, Norway
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| Link Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:49 am Post subject: |
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Hi
I'm thinking about building the control panel. I live in Norway and as this article discribes we use 240v. I was wondering if anyone in Norway or maybe Germany has changed the receptacles and plugs in order to use the ones we use over here?
Thanks
#Jarle
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barney the bear
Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden
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| Link Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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I live in Sweden but I have heard that that the greatest part of the distributionsystem for electric power in Norway (IT) is different than the system (TN-) used in nearly all the countries in the rest of Europe, for example Sweden or Germany. But the TN-system is also introduced in Norway. In the IT-system there is no neutral. You ought to contact an Norwegian expert for advice about what system you got and what plugs etc. you need.
http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/TN-nett
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ianvd
Joined: 19 Apr 2015
Posts: 7
Location: New Zealand
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| Link Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:16 pm Post subject: Element Relays |
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Hi Kal,
First time user from New Zealand.
Are the 2 x element relays necessary on a 230v single phase/neutral system?
There is no real safety concern as the only hot wire goes through the SSR and Earth+Neutral and one in the same.
Ian
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11120
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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| Link Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Element Relays |
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| ianvd wrote: | Are the 2 x element relays necessary on a 230v single phase/neutral system?
There is no real safety concern as the only hot wire goes through the SSR and Earth+Neutral and one in the same. |
Hi Ian,
The relays are required on a 230V system single HOT system for the same reason they're used on a 240V dual-HOT setup: The physically disconnect the kettle from the HOT line(s). You could argue that only single pole relays are required instead of double pole (given that one of the lines we're switching on this version is at ground/neutral), but I prefer to have both physically disconnected - just in case. A single pole relays are much harder to find too (not much cost savings if any).
Kal
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ianvd
Joined: 19 Apr 2015
Posts: 7
Location: New Zealand
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| Link Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Element Relays |
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| kal wrote: | | ianvd wrote: | Are the 2 x element relays necessary on a 230v single phase/neutral system?
There is no real safety concern as the only hot wire goes through the SSR and Earth+Neutral and one in the same. |
Hi Ian,
The relays are required on a 230V system single HOT system for the same reason they're used on a 240V dual-HOT setup: The physically disconnect the kettle from the HOT line(s). You could argue that only single pole relays are required instead of double pole (given that one of the lines we're switching on this version is at ground/neutral), but I prefer to have both physically disconnected - just in case. A single pole relays are much harder to find too (not much cost savings if any).
Kal |
Ok, thanks.
In NZ, three phase (pole) ones are the cheapest.
I'm looking forward to the build.
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barney the bear
Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden
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| Link Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Element Relays |
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| ianvd wrote: | | kal wrote: | | ianvd wrote: | Are the 2 x element relays necessary on a 230v single phase/neutral system?
There is no real safety concern as the only hot wire goes through the SSR and Earth+Neutral and one in the same. |
Hi Ian,
The relays are required on a 230V system single HOT system for the same reason they're used on a 240V dual-HOT setup: The physically disconnect the kettle from the HOT line(s). You could argue that only single pole relays are required instead of double pole (given that one of the lines we're switching on this version is at ground/neutral), but I prefer to have both physically disconnected - just in case. A single pole relays are much harder to find too (not much cost savings if any).
Kal |
Ok, thanks.
In NZ, three phase (pole) ones are the cheapest.
I'm looking forward to the build. |
Another reason to use a 2-pole relay is : In many 230V-countries you cannot see which of the two poles (excl. ground) in the outlets that is neutral.
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ianvd
Joined: 19 Apr 2015
Posts: 7
Location: New Zealand
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| Link Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:40 am Post subject: Re: Element Relays |
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| barney the bear wrote: | | ianvd wrote: | | kal wrote: | | ianvd wrote: | Are the 2 x element relays necessary on a 230v single phase/neutral system?
There is no real safety concern as the only hot wire goes through the SSR and Earth+Neutral and one in the same. |
Hi Ian,
The relays are required on a 230V system single HOT system for the same reason they're used on a 240V dual-HOT setup: The physically disconnect the kettle from the HOT line(s). You could argue that only single pole relays are required instead of double pole (given that one of the lines we're switching on this version is at ground/neutral), but I prefer to have both physically disconnected - just in case. A single pole relays are much harder to find too (not much cost savings if any).
Kal |
Ok, thanks.
In NZ, three phase (pole) ones are the cheapest.
I'm looking forward to the build. |
Another reason to use a 2-pole relay is : In many 230V-countries you cannot see which of the two poles (excl. ground) in the outlets that is neutral. |
Here, the neutral line is grounded/earthed at your cabinet/transformer (industrial) or at the step-down transformer on the road (household).
If check with a multi meter to earth, you can see which is N vs A.
I can see that that mechanical relay offers added protection to the user if the controller/solid state relay fails and you don't physically unplug the kettle.
Edit: also means all heater current doesn't have to go through toggle switch.
Ian
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barney the bear
Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden
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| Link Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Element Relays |
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| ianvd wrote: | | barney the bear wrote: | | ianvd wrote: | | kal wrote: | | ianvd wrote: | Are the 2 x element relays necessary on a 230v single phase/neutral system?
There is no real safety concern as the only hot wire goes through the SSR and Earth+Neutral and one in the same. |
Hi Ian,
The relays are required on a 230V system single HOT system for the same reason they're used on a 240V dual-HOT setup: The physically disconnect the kettle from the HOT line(s). You could argue that only single pole relays are required instead of double pole (given that one of the lines we're switching on this version is at ground/neutral), but I prefer to have both physically disconnected - just in case. A single pole relays are much harder to find too (not much cost savings if any).
Kal |
Ok, thanks.
In NZ, three phase (pole) ones are the cheapest.
I'm looking forward to the build. |
Another reason to use a 2-pole relay is : In many 230V-countries you cannot see which of the two poles (excl. ground) in the outlets that is neutral. |
Here, the neutral line is grounded/earthed at your cabinet/transformer (industrial) or at the step-down transformer on the road (household).
If check with a multi meter to earth, you can see which is N vs A.
|
Yes, I know that - it is the same here. But if you can turn the plug 180 degrees and still put it in the outlet you are not helped by knowing what´s in the outlet. That´s the case with the common "Schuko"-type outlet and plug used here and all over Europe.
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ianvd
Joined: 19 Apr 2015
Posts: 7
Location: New Zealand
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| Link Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:50 am Post subject: Re: Element Relays |
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| barney the bear wrote: | | ianvd wrote: | | barney the bear wrote: | | ianvd wrote: | | kal wrote: | | ianvd wrote: | Are the 2 x element relays necessary on a 230v single phase/neutral system?
There is no real safety concern as the only hot wire goes through the SSR and Earth+Neutral and one in the same. |
Hi Ian,
The relays are required on a 230V system single HOT system for the same reason they're used on a 240V dual-HOT setup: The physically disconnect the kettle from the HOT line(s). You could argue that only single pole relays are required instead of double pole (given that one of the lines we're switching on this version is at ground/neutral), but I prefer to have both physically disconnected - just in case. A single pole relays are much harder to find too (not much cost savings if any).
Kal |
Ok, thanks.
In NZ, three phase (pole) ones are the cheapest.
I'm looking forward to the build. |
Another reason to use a 2-pole relay is : In many 230V-countries you cannot see which of the two poles (excl. ground) in the outlets that is neutral. |
Here, the neutral line is grounded/earthed at your cabinet/transformer (industrial) or at the step-down transformer on the road (household).
If check with a multi meter to earth, you can see which is N vs A.
|
Yes, I know that - it is the same here. But if you can turn the plug 180 degrees and still put it in the outlet you are not helped by knowing what´s in the outlet. That´s the case with the common "Schuko"-type outlet and plug used here and all over Europe. |
OK, got it!!!!!!
These plugs are not used in NZ and Australia.
We've got these funny ones:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112
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barney the bear
Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 46
Location: Linköping, Sweden
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| Link Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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In my own build I am going to use plugs and sockets following the international standard IEC-60320. They are named C1, C2, etc..
The ones called C13 and C14 are many familiar with. These are the ones you have for the power supply on PC:s.
Maximum for the box is 16A. Just now only 1-phase 230V is available in the house where I live. The "biggest" outlet I have is a 25A in the kitchen. I have built an adapter so I can use that. In a few years they will change to 3-phase 230/400V and then I will adapt my equipment to that situation.
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ianvd
Joined: 19 Apr 2015
Posts: 7
Location: New Zealand
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| Link Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| barney the bear wrote: | | In a few years they will change to 3-phase 230/400V and then I will adapt my equipment to that situation. |
I like this idea. I rewired my entire house when I renovated it. Have 100amps available single phase (for the entire house)
Or I could do it at work with a 2500amp 3-phase!
I'm going to stick with all my work components for the build:
- 32amp 3 pin blue plugs/sockets
- Amphenol twist-type thermocouple plugs for temp sensor
- Novus PID controllers
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tae
Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 36
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| Link Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for quick reply  So if building a 50A / 240V panel, should the NEMA L6-15 (250VAC/15A) for the pumps need to be upgraded. I assume not ?
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11120
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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