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Control panel with discrete PIDs vs. computer/automation?
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:12 am    Post subject: Control panel with discrete PIDs vs. computer/automation? Reply with quote


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iijakii




Joined: 10 Jan 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with your thoughts on PIDs vs BCS. It would be neat to do a nice BCS with automated valves, automatic/measured strike volumes and everything, but that's an entirely different ballgame.

One question I do have is: would it be possible to implement a wireless-display (display-only, not controllable)? It'd be cool to have the temps being transmitted to Xbee/Arduino or whatnot. Don't see how could do that from the PID though. Not worth it if would have to run another RTD, etc.
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iijakii wrote:
One question I do have is: would it be possible to implement a wireless-display (display-only, not controllable)? It'd be cool to have the temps being transmitted to Xbee/Arduino or whatnot. Don't see how could do that from the PID though. Not worth it if would have to run another RTD, etc.

Yup, don't see how that would be possible either without hacking into the PIDs somehow. A low-tech/simple way that doesn't require any changes would be to use a video baby monitor. Certainly not the most elegant solution.

You could easily extend the alarm wirelessly however with something like a doorbell repeater. This would let you know that something needs to be done. The alarm would go off on the control panel and the door bell extender elsewhere would chime to let you know.

Kal

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cscade




Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 140
Location: Wooster, OH


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
iijakii wrote:
One question I do have is: would it be possible to implement a wireless-display (display-only, not controllable)? It'd be cool to have the temps being transmitted to Xbee/Arduino or whatnot. Don't see how could do that from the PID though. Not worth it if would have to run another RTD, etc.

Yup, don't see how that would be possible either without hacking into the PIDs somehow. A low-tech/simple way that doesn't require any changes would be to use a video baby monitor. Maybe not the most elegant solution.

You could easily extend the alarm wirelessly however with something like a doorbell repeater. This would let you know that something needs to be done. The alarm would go off on the control panel and the door bell extender elsewhere would chime to let you know.

Kal


I was just about to start a thread on this, but fortunately my search-fu is working!

Is there really no way to "tap in" to the temp probes directly, strictly for logging purposes? I am sold on the style of panel Kal has designed here, but I really want to experiment with data logging and remote viewing. Many other aspects of my process (ferment control, calendar reminders, etc) will be powered by wireless JeeNode (http://jeelabs.org/) modules, and I'd like to to able to piggy-back one of them on the control panel as well for MOAR DATA POINTS!

All the JeeNodes will talk to a node.js process wirelessly to keep track of every aspect of each beer, and remind me when it's time to do something like dry-hop etc. I'm a software engineer, so all those "complex parts" are cake, but something as simple as getting access to a temperature probe signal baffles me Wink

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Raackstar




Joined: 18 Feb 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal - we are wrestling with this question right now, and this was exactly the set of info needed to decide.
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cscade wrote:
Is there really no way to "tap in" to the temp probes directly, strictly for logging purposes?

Sure, anything is possible I suppose if you were to design your own circuitry. How that would be done I have no idea. It may not be obvious the convert the signal into something meaningful not to mention how you'd measure with something else already using it (the PID). The temp probe is simply a fancy resistor. The PID sends a voltage and measures the resistance and then converts using some formula to temp.

This is why I mention hacking in the PID instead. Let it do all the work and what not to convert to degrees temp for you and then monitor what it's finding with some sort of capture/sampling circuitry.

I have no idea of the specifics on how to do this however.

It may also be simpler to just put in a second temp probe with some PC capture/sampling device. I don't know. Lots more thinking and research required.

Kal

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cscade




Joined: 23 Feb 2012
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Location: Wooster, OH


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
cscade wrote:
Is there really no way to "tap in" to the temp probes directly, strictly for logging purposes?

Sure, anything is possible I suppose if you were to design your own circuitry. How that would be done I have no idea. It may not be obvious the convert the signal into something meaningful not to mention how you'd measure with something else already using it (the PID). The temp probe is simply a fancy resistor. The PID sends a voltage and measures the resistance and then converts using some formula to temp.

This is why I mention hacking in the PID instead. Let it do all the work and what not to convert to degrees temp for you and then monitor what it's finding with some sort of capture/sampling circuitry.

I have no idea of the specifics on how to do this however.

It may also be simpler to just put in a second temp probe with some PC capture/sampling device. I don't know. Lots more thinking and research required.

Kal


Good points.

One intermediate option I have would be to add a probe inline at the chill step, and use that as a "process start" trigger for the ferment/condition phase. In other words, the software could notify me that it saw a "new beer" going into fermenters at 67f on 2/5/2012 at 14:10, and then I could name it and pass that new beer object on to my process management software for the rest of the phases.

Lots to think about. I'll be sure to document whatever I do for everyone's amusement!

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cscade wrote:
One intermediate option I have would be to add a probe inline at the chill step, and use that as a "process start" trigger for the ferment/condition phase. In other words, the software could notify me that it saw a "new beer" going into fermenters at 67f on 2/5/2012 at 14:10, and then I could name it and pass that new beer object on to my process management software for the rest of the phases.

Using a temp probe to notify something that you're starting to fill a fermenter (by looking at a fast change in temp I guess)? Why not just put a button that you press to let you know you're starting something? Why use temp?

Usually in process control you want to automate things to save time/work. Fermentation/conditioning takes weeks and isn't overly timing dependant. It's just as easy to start with a click of a button or something. Automating it would be prone to mistakes and doesn't save any effort or time. If you were doing something every 10 minutes or it's a random occurance then it makes sense to automate. You don't want to stand there having to watch the thing ready to press the button, nor do you want to be pressing a button every 10 mins. So you automate it. But you're going to be standing right there doing the work of transferring it, why try to automate the start of the event? Just have a button that the operator (you) presses. 0% chance of something going wrong too.

I'm not exactly sure why you're want to automate recording the exact second that wort went into fermenters but hey, anything's possible. I just write down the date in my notebook using a pen. Wink If I'm off by a few hours or even a day, it doesn't matter. In fact, the date doesn't matter anyway. The gravity does. Yeast doesn't follow dates. Wink

Kal

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Feurhund




Joined: 01 Feb 2011
Posts: 89



PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A simple solution to remote viewing the temp etc. would be to repurpose a video baby monitor. Mine can play lullabies and I read that in studies, hops release more alpha acids when relaxed.
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cscade




Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Posts: 140
Location: Wooster, OH


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:

Using a temp probe to notify something that you're starting to fill a fermenter (by looking at a fast change in temp I guess)? Why not just put a button that you press to let you know you're starting something? Why use temp?

Usually in process control you want to automate things to save time/work. Something like a start of a process that's going to take weeks is just as easy to start with a click of a button or something. Automating it would be prone to mistakes and doesn't save any effort or time. If you were doing it every 10 minutes or even daily or it's a random occurance then it makes sense. But you're going to be standing right there doing the work so just use a button that the operator (you) presses.

I'm not exactly sure why you're want to automate recording the exact second that wort went into fermenters but hey, anything's possible. I just write down the date in my notebook using a pen. Wink

Kal


Here I am just wandering around dreaming up nonsense, and this guy walks into the room and starts making sense. Who does he think he is?!

I could argue some of those points, but that fact that it's not ever going to be a random occurrence is a very good point. In truth though, none of this is actually needed. I have been doing it all on paper for years, and had no problem incrementally improving my beers. For the most part it's about an opportunity to play around.

A button is so simple. Can't I make it more complicated somehow? Mug

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can make it as complicated as you like of course! It's your setup. I just see what people do and I often wonder "why?". Wink

Kal

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crush




Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 706
Location: Telemark, Norway


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
iijakii wrote:
One question I do have is: would it be possible to implement a wireless-display (display-only, not controllable)? It'd be cool to have the temps being transmitted to Xbee/Arduino or whatnot. Don't see how could do that from the PID though. Not worth it if would have to run another RTD, etc.

Yup, don't see how that would be possible either without hacking into the PIDs somehow. A low-tech/simple way that doesn't require any changes would be to use a video baby monitor. Maybe not the most elegant solution.

You could easily extend the alarm wirelessly however with something like a doorbell repeater. This would let you know that something needs to be done. The alarm would go off on the control panel and the door bell extender elsewhere would chime to let you know.

Kal


I'm looking into monitoring the PIDs for a remote display. The programmable settings includes a communication address and data rate. Is this for a serial link? The wiring diagram for the PID doesn't seems to mention this. Terminal 2 looks like a possible candidate?

For me, remote monitoring of the PIDs is just a nice to have - once the system gets going it pretty much takes care of itself. What is more "must have" for me is a remote alarm (I can't hear the alarm when I'm not in the brewery) and remote sensing of the kettle volume to keep track on the sparge. (I've had troubles fly sparging with ball valves getting clogged, so for the next few brews I'll go back to batch sparging while I refine the fly sparge process.)

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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crush wrote:
I'm looking into monitoring the PIDs for a remote display. The programmable settings includes a communication address and data rate. Is this for a serial link?

The manual says to "ignore this setting" for both so it's probably not something that is functional.

Kal

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crush




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PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
crush wrote:
I'm looking into monitoring the PIDs for a remote display. The programmable settings includes a communication address and data rate. Is this for a serial link?

The manual says to "ignore this setting" for both so it's probably not something that is functional.

You're so trusting! Smile I'll believe the manual only after I've had a voltmeter/oscilliscope/telepath on the pins and opened the PID to make sure there aren't any transmit headers in there that we can use!

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cscade




Joined: 23 Feb 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crush wrote:
kal wrote:
crush wrote:
I'm looking into monitoring the PIDs for a remote display. The programmable settings includes a communication address and data rate. Is this for a serial link?

The manual says to "ignore this setting" for both so it's probably not something that is functional.

You're so trusting! Smile I'll believe the manual only after I've had a voltmeter/oscilliscope/telepath on the pins and opened the PID to make sure there aren't any transmit headers in there that we can use!


Watching this space intently!

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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crush wrote:
You're so trusting! Smile I'll believe the manual only after I've had a voltmeter/oscilliscope/telepath on the pins and opened the PID to make sure there aren't any transmit headers in there that we can use!

True! You never know...!

Kal

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jasongetsdown




Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 12
Location: Somerville, MA


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:23 pm    Post subject: Temperature logging, remote display, etc. Reply with quote

My inaugural electric brewery post!

I'm currently planning a setup that addresses a number of the issues raised in this thread. It is possible to read temperatures from the RTDs and send them wherever you like for logging, display, or process control purposes.

You'll need an onboard Arduino, a little programming knowledge, and the right equations.

The Arduino makes it easy to measure the voltage coming out of the RTDs. The Arduino will supply 5V to the sensor. The voltage at the pin where you take your reading will vary based on the resistance of the RTD, which is related to the temperature.

***Disclaimer: I haven't implemented any of this yet, so this is all conjecture at this point. Perhaps someone here can verify my thinking!

R = V/I
The voltage is known, the current needs to be measured.

From there getting the temperature is simple with Pt100 probes because they are standardized. At zero degrees C they have 100 ohms of resistance. From there you can calculate or look up the temperature (see the table and sample code at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_thermometer).

A third option is just to use linear interpolation between the resistance at 0C and the resistance given in the table for 100C. It isn't actually linear, but it's close enough for brewing purposes.

You can send the data to another Arduino using the XBee wireless module, or over usb to a computer's serial port.

If you want to get more ambitious, the Arduino can replace the PID controllers, or you can send the temperature readings to a computer that will do the PID calculations and return a control value. The Arduino can then control the SSRs directly. It won't have any of the auto-tuning or fuzzy logic of an industrial controller, but it will probably get the job done. Details on the algorithm are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller. It looks complex, but look at the pseudocode at the bottom. The implementation is actually pretty simple.

Because I love a challenge (i.e. I'm a glutton for punishment) I'm planning on calculating the temperature with the Arduino and then sending the data to my MacBook where I'll write the code to do the PID calculations, and create the user interface in Processing. Then I'll send back a percentage (a la the manual mode on an industrial PID controller) and have the Arduino manage firing the elements.

I'm a total amateur here. All this is gleaned from reading Arduino tutorials, studying Kal's instructions and diagrams, and lots of googling and wikipedia surfing.The first round of parts are still in the mail so I haven't done any testing and I don't know which parts of this are malarkey, and which make sense. I work with a controls engineer and an electrician who I'm going to discuss this with, but I haven't sat down with them yet.

Are there any gotchas I'm missing?
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crush




Joined: 28 Dec 2010
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature logging, remote display, etc. Reply with quote

jasongetsdown wrote:
My inaugural electric brewery post!


Welcome to the show! Very Happy

Quote:
Are there any gotchas I'm missing?


I've not dug into the details, but I've seen it stated that you cannot attach more than one device to the same RTD. I'm assuming it's because the additional devices throw off the resistance.

Even if that were possible, the arduino senses single inputs and does a A2D conversion based on the voltage up to 5+ above it's ground (or up to AREF, if provided). Unless the arduino has a common ground with the other device, there's no saying what the actual potential read would be.

If you can come up with a circuit so that two devices can successfully read from the same RTD without needing a common ground then you've got it solved.

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Temperature logging, remote display, etc. Reply with quote

crush wrote:
I've not dug into the details, but I've seen it stated that you cannot attach more than one device to the same RTD. I'm assuming it's because the additional devices throw off the resistance.

That would be my concern as well.

Kal

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jasongetsdown




Joined: 19 Mar 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point. I'm not using the PID controllers so it isn't a problem for me.
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