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Couple Questions

 
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fpweeks




Joined: 19 Jul 2012
Posts: 4
Location: shohola


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Couple Questions Reply with quote


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So ive been lurking here on the website here, planning my jump to an all electric brewery. I have a couple of questions on the control panel that maybe some of you long experts can answer.....

1. I currently use a igloo for my mash-tun so have no need for a HERMS, although my new brewery plans will incorporate that as i plan on ditching the coolers....so this is me telling you i have never used a HERMS system before....

IS there a reason why you wouldn't want to control the wort pump from the mash PID to maintain the mash temp. This way it would only run your wort pump as the temp dropped. this would also allow you to bring your HLT up to mash-out/sparge temp during the mash.

2. Has anyone added float switches to their HLT and Brew kettle to prevent the element from running dry?
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rcrabb22




Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 462
Location: Illinois


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't claim to be a HERMS expert but I'll offer an opinion.

Typically the HERMS heat exchange coil is in the HLT and most if not all HERMS users run the recirculation pump 100% of the time and adjust the temperature of the water in the HLT to maintain the correct temperature of the recirculating mash liquid. Using a PID and Solid State Relays allow you to maintain a very precise temperature in the HLT and subsequently the mash tun.

There are some that make the argument to control the HLT heat source based on the the temperature in the mash tun. While this might make some sense it becomes a problem when doing the initial heating of the HLT and then later raising the temperature of the HLT for mash out. One would need to swap the temperature information source (temp probe) for the PID controlling the HLT heating element between the HLT and the mash tun. It makes the design and use of such a system as Kal has documented more complex than is necessary IMHO

Also, electric motors (in general) wear better if running constantly instead of cycling on and off.
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foomench




Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 704
Location: Longmont, CO

Drinking: Pinot barrel aged quad

Working on: Flanders oude bruin in barrel, Flanders red fermenting to refill the barrel


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Couple Questions Reply with quote

fpweeks wrote:
1. I currently use a igloo for my mash-tun so have no need for a HERMS, although my new brewery plans will incorporate that as i plan on ditching the coolers....so this is me telling you i have never used a HERMS system before....
I use an igloo for my mash tun and really like using it as a part of the HERMS. It allows me to do step mashes and step up to 168 for mashing out. My efficiency went up when I switched to the HERMS, and I think a big part of this is recirculating the mash to get the whole thing to 168. Prior to this I would run off some wort, heat it on the stove, pour it back in ...

Quote:
IS there a reason why you wouldn't want to control the wort pump from the mash PID to maintain the mash temp. This way it would only run your wort pump as the temp dropped. this would also allow you to bring your HLT up to mash-out/sparge temp during the mash.
The argument against this is that the pump really isn't designed for that amount of switching on and off. It will burn out the pump. That said, I'm going to try it with the max 2 minute cycle time on the PID. I'm hoping it runs continuously for most of the step, and then switches just a few times as the mash approaches the set point. I'll report back on this, but it may be a while.

Haven't done any float switches, although I've thought about them.

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silverspoons




Joined: 21 Dec 2010
Posts: 555
Location: Webster NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Throw out the mind set you use when brewing with a cooler,, grain temp, water temp, grain volume, water volume.. etc.
Bring your HLT up to temp, transfer water to MT, recirculate to desired temp, add your grain.. put the top on and watch. the system will come up to your mash temp, set your timer, when mash is finished, reset HLT to mashout temp and watch.. then sparge with that water.

a HERMS system lets you continually recirculate the mash keeping a consistent temp set by the HLT temp. It also continuously washes over the grain giving you better efficiency and very clear wort. you could control both pumps to turn off when "not needed" but i'm guessing that won't be often. your mash temp is measures at the outgoing valve which eliminates the variances within your cooler.

as for float switches, there has been discussion on this forum but i don't see the need. you only turn the HLT on after you fill with water and you turn it off just before you start to sparge and drain the kettle. same with the boil..

Silverspoons
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fpweeks




Joined: 19 Jul 2012
Posts: 4
Location: shohola


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rcrabb22 wrote:
I won't claim to be a HERMS expert but I'll offer an opinion.

There are some that make the argument to control the HLT heat source based on the the temperature in the mash tun. While this might make some sense it becomes a problem when doing the initial heating of the HLT and then later raising the temperature of the HLT for mash out. One would need to swap the temperature information source (temp probe) for the PID controlling the HLT heating element between the HLT and the mash tun. It makes the design and use of such a system as Kal has documented more complex than is necessary IMHO



I was thinking that the Mash temp probe and PID would tell the wort pump when to turn on, and as long as HLT temp > MLT temp the pump would run until the mash set point is met. This would allow using a mash set point of say 152, while the HLT could be raised up to sparge temps of 168.

BUT.....if all HERMS users operate based only on the temp of the HLT then there must be merit to it.....there's a lot of people out there smarter than me!
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fpweeks




Joined: 19 Jul 2012
Posts: 4
Location: shohola


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That Makes a lot of sense silverspoons..... hadn't thought about the affect of the constant recirc on mash efficiency.....
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Couple Questions Reply with quote

fpweeks wrote:
IS there a reason why you wouldn't want to control the wort pump from the mash PID to maintain the mash temp. This way it would only run your wort pump as the temp dropped.

Impossible to get one accurate mash temp reading if you don't recirculate the mash wort constantly. Otherwise you get hot in the middle of the mash and cooler outside and heat also rises. Which is correct? How do you measure? We put the temp probe in the plumbing to know what it's at and recirculate.

Quote:
this would also allow you to bring your HLT up to mash-out/sparge temp during the mash.

I do that too. Once mash is done, you turn up the HLT temp to mashout temp and the mash follows. Once you've reached mashout temp your sparge water is ready.

See my brew day step by step article on the main site for all the gory details.

Quote:
2. Has anyone added float switches to their HLT and Brew kettle to prevent the element from running dry?

I thought about it. Seemed like added complexity/more places for things to get gunky. While you shouldn't do it on purpose, the elements I use can be run dry and not fry. So even less reason to need that extra precaution.

It's actually very hard (impossible) to run an element dry using my process since I turn OFF the HLT element when I start sparging. So the element's not on as the HLT empties.

In the boil kettle I turn ON the element once it's full. I'd have no reason to turn it on sooner.

Equipment and good brewing process go together. The two go hand in hand. See my brew day step by step article for the full details:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step

Context is important. It's not always good to add something if the process doesn't warrant it.

Kal

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fpweeks




Joined: 19 Jul 2012
Posts: 4
Location: shohola


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, i had read your step by step.....it al makes sense now though. thanks all for the answers.

the recirc seems to help the mash all around, keeps temps even throughout the grain bed, etc, etc,.....making me want to upgrade more and more.....
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're welcome! It took me a while too to realize that you can't design a brewing setup without also thinking about the process at the same time. The difficuulties I had was a bit of a chicken and egg thing and is why it took me a good ~2 years to design my setup: I had to learn the all-grain brewing proces from the ground up, then figure out what is best for me and my process and then (and only then) design a system that worked with it.

Kal

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Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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