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FAQ: Adapting for a 30 gallon/1 bbl (or larger) setup
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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UPDATE:

The first post of this thread has now been updated with detailed wiring diagrams for building a 50 amp control panel.

Good luck to the DIY'ers out there. Pre-built & tested panels are coming soon!

Kal

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sethx9



Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:34 am    Post subject: Identifying parts in pictures Reply with quote

In the photo of the inside of the 50A panel (not the back of the door) what is that mounted between the buses on the top right and the transformers and DC power supplies on the top left? And do you have part numbers and suppliers for those perforated cages over the transformers and DC power supplies?

Thanks!

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:44 am    Post subject: Re: Identifying parts in pictures Reply with quote

sethx9 wrote:
In the photo of the inside of the 50A panel (not the back of the door) what is that mounted between the buses on the top right and the transformers and DC power supplies on the top left? And do you have part numbers and suppliers for those perforated cages over the transformers and DC power supplies?


It's the safe start interlock relay. It's the same one used in the standard 30A control panel build instructions.

There are no transformers in the 50A control panel that we prebuild as we use special (modified) 5V power supplies that are matched for the meters we use. I recommend you follow the standard instructions.

Kal

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sethx9



Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal, it was the safe start interlock relay. Speaking of that...In the article on the safe start interlock it says "8-pin relay with 120VAC coil" but in the picture the relay is clearly marked "250VAC/28VDC". And the link for the item goes to a page that has a large number of similar relays listed. Since I'm building the 50A panel which 8-pin relay should I get?

Thanks again!
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sethx9 wrote:
Thanks Kal, it was the safe start interlock relay. Speaking of that...In the article on the safe start interlock it says "8-pin relay with 120VAC coil" but in the picture the relay is clearly marked "250VAC/28VDC". And the link for the item goes to a page that has a large number of similar relays listed. Since I'm building the 50A panel which 8-pin relay should I get?

Thanks again!


120V is the coil voltage. It's the voltage that is required to make the relay switches operate. The 250VAC/28VDC you are seeing in the picture is the voltage that the switches inside the relay are rated for (the contact rating). (In our case we only switching 110-120V AC).

You need to get the same relay as per the standard 30A instructions which is an 8-pin 2 pole relay with 120VAC coil. I'm assuming you're located in a country with 110V-120V AC power. Scroll down until you see one that matches. I can't link to exact products on eBay as product links are only valid for ~1 week. I have to instead do a general search and everyone names their products slightly differently. Sometimes people will list it as a 110V AC coil, some others as 120V AC. It's the same thing. As such, sometimes products are not available too as they come and go. We have no control over what people list. Looking now, there doesn't seem to be any 8in 2 pole relays with 110-120V AC coil available.

If it's easier, order the kit with parts through us and you'll get all the correct parts, all pre-tested, usually for less than ordering the 100+ items seperately.

Kal

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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOVEMBER 2012 UPDATE:

Don't want to build it yourself? This control panel is now available in pre-built or kit form through our control panel order page.

They are carefully hand built in the USA on a first come, first served basis.

Kal

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thedudeabides



Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are there different fittings/hoses that will be needed for the upgraded pumps that are shown in the original post?
In the beginning stages of thinking about going nano and am interested in keeping it electric for energy usage/cleanliness/cost purposes.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thedudeabides wrote:
Are there different fittings/hoses that will be needed for the upgraded pumps that are shown in the original post?
In the beginning stages of thinking about going nano and am interested in keeping it electric for energy usage/cleanliness/cost purposes.


I take it you mean this pump?:

Quote:
March Nano Brewery Pump - Stainless 110V



Link: http://morebeer.com/view_product/12009/103556/March_Nano_Brewery_Pump_-_Stainless_110V?a_aid=theelectricbrewery


On the input side, yes, as the input is 1" FPT (female) instead of 3/4" MPT (male) like the pumps I have in my build instructions.

It's very simple: In the build instructions here replace the Stainless steel coupler 3/4" FPT x 1/2" FPT with a
Stainless - 1" MPT x 1/2" FPT Bushing. Do this for both pumps.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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thedudeabides



Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
thedudeabides wrote:
Are there different fittings/hoses that will be needed for the upgraded pumps that are shown in the original post?
In the beginning stages of thinking about going nano and am interested in keeping it electric for energy usage/cleanliness/cost purposes.


I take it you mean this pump?:

Quote:
March Nano Brewery Pump - Stainless 110V



Link: http://morebeer.com/view_product/12009/103556/March_Nano_Brewery_Pump_-_Stainless_110V?a_aid=theelectricbrewery


On the input side, yes, as the input is 1" FPT (female) instead of 3/4" MPT (male) like the pumps I have in my build instructions.

It's very simple: In the build instructions here replace the Stainless steel coupler 3/4" FPT x 1/2" FPT with a
Stainless - 1" MPT x 1/2" FPT Bushing. Do this for both pumps.

Kal


That's the one.
Thanks Kal
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Fejj



Joined: 10 Jun 2013
Posts: 213
Location: North Shore, MA


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal,

WHen using a 50A Panel for 30+ gallons is it possible to use 2 different wattage elements?

For Example.
Right now i am planning on brewing small(5-10g) batchs as a Pilot brewery for a nanobrewery id like to run in the near future. To do this i plan on using 1(one) 5500W Element and having the second plug open. When i move up to bigger 20-30G batches could i use a 4500W element for the second plug. Obviously it would be cheaper but im wondering on the pros and cons of doing this scenerio. It would be 10kW instead of 11k so its closer to the 80% mark.
Just a thought/question.
Jeff
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fejj wrote:
When using a 50A Panel for 30+ gallons is it possible to use 2 different wattage elements?


Yes.

Kal

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Cacaman



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 20
Location: Laredo, TX


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone think this system can handle 3 bbl using 2 4500W elements?
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cacaman wrote:
Anyone think this system can handle 3 bbl using 2 4500W elements?

Depends on what you mean by "handle". Wink It will work, the heat time will simply be slower.

Our largest 50A control panel as designed can handle up to about 11000 watts of power, enough to effectively boil 1-2 bbl (31-62 gallons) and possibly more depending on kettle configuration/insulation, ambient temperature, use of a kettle chimney, etc. The larger the volume, the longer it takes to heat up and get to boil. The more power you have, the faster you can heat water or wort. There are online calculators available that you can plug numbers into to see what sort of power you would require to heat in the amount of time you deem acceptable. Here are a few examples:

http://www.brewheads.com/powerrequired.php
http://www.brewheads.com/rise.php

Using the second link, 11000W of power would heat 3 bbl (93 gallons) at a rate of 0.77 degrees per minute, and 9000W would heat 3bbl at a rate of 0.63 degrees per minute.

Play with kettle configuration/insulation, ambient temperature, use of a kettle chimney, and so forth and you can change this.

To heat faster, a larger power control panel to drive more heating elements would be required. Keep in mind that parts rated for more than 50A are considerably more expensive and harder to find as they are specialized (not standardized). For example, there is no NEMA standard for plugs/receptacles above 50A. So a control panel above 50A typically need to be hard-wired which itself introduces complexities and other concerns such as electrical permitting as now the control panel becomes part of the building wiring.

If you do decide you need more power for a substantially larger setup, one option that many brewers use is to use our 50A control panel to maintain hot liquor temperature and boil, but temporarily add extra power with one or two separate 5500W heating elements on a separate 30-50A circuit. All that is required is one or two 30A outlets and a breaker box located near the kettles to turn them on and off. Any electrician can wire this up. These breakers control the separate elements with the breaker box and turn them on to heat up the hot liquor tank water faster or to get to boil faster. Once close to target temperature, they're turned off and then the heating elements driven by our 50A control panel are used to maintain temperature/boil. While maybe not as elegant, this is a more cost effective solution than building one massive control panel to handle more than 50A of power.

Good luck!

Kal

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Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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vandalbrewing



Joined: 04 Sep 2014
Posts: 1
Location: NC


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am interested to see Kenny's or any other's system. I am thinking of building a 1BBL system and wanted to see how things have worked out after a couple years of using it (assuming they haven't scalled up). Thanks in advance!
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Cheers,

VBC
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mothership



Joined: 05 Feb 2015
Posts: 1



PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:43 am    Post subject: two elements, one plug Reply with quote

at the risk of sounding stupid, would it be possible to wire two elements in the HLT to a single outlet? thinking a 50a outlet, with 50a contactor and 80a SSR
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tae



Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 32



PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doesn't the female receptacle in the panel change if using 230V pumps instead of 110v? The ones in the panel are rated for 115V and nowhere does it mention changing the female receptacles in the panel to some that are 250V capable?

Am i misunderstanding something?

Kind regards
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:37 am    Post subject: Re: two elements, one plug Reply with quote

mothership wrote:
at the risk of sounding stupid, would it be possible to wire two elements in the HLT to a single outlet? thinking a 50a outlet, with 50a contactor and 80a SSR

If done safely, yes. The problem is that connecting the two separate wires together safely is probably more work / more expensive than using separate receptacles.

tae wrote:
Doesn't the female receptacle in the panel change if using 230V pumps instead of 110v? The ones in the panel are rated for 115V and nowhere does it mention changing the female receptacles in the panel to some that are 250V capable?

Am i misunderstanding something?

I believe you are misunderstanding: The instructions you are reading here are for building a 50A control panel for 30+ gallons for use in locations that have both 240V and 120V available and as such they use standard 120V pumps, just like our regular 30A control panel instructions. If using 230-240V pumps then yes, things will have to change. You can refer to our "FAQ: Adapting for 220-240V countries" here for more details: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25393
While those instructions there are for a 30A panel the ideas can be carried over to a 50A/30+gallon panel you may choose to build that only runs on 240V. A 50A / 30+ gallon panel that only runs at 240v would be a combination of those instructions and the instructions here.

Kal

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Dgarvey981



Joined: 31 Oct 2015
Posts: 11



PostLink    Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:


If you do decide you need more power for a substantially larger setup, one option that many brewers use is to use our 50A control panel to maintain hot liquor temperature and boil, but temporarily add extra power with one or two separate 5500W heating elements on a separate 30-50A circuit. All that is required is one or two 30A outlets and a breaker box located near the kettles to turn them on and off. Any electrician can wire this up. These breakers control the separate elements with the breaker box and turn them on to heat up the hot liquor tank water faster or to get to boil faster. Once close to target temperature, they're turned off and then the heating elements driven by our 50A control panel are used to maintain temperature/boil. While maybe not as elegant, this is a more cost effective solution than building one massive control panel to handle more than 50A of power.

Good luck!

Kal


Hi Kal, Can you elaborate a little bit more on this? Specifically what parts would be needed... I assume a few more heating element kits, receptacles, an on/off switch (?) and another 50A gfci breaker in the incoming power supply? Seems pretty simple, but I want to make sure. Do a lot of people do this? Any photo examples out there??

Lastly, in theory, would the overall power consumption be about the same on a brew day? You'd be using twice the watts, but for half the time, rather than half the watts for twice the time. Basically the same? (Though you'd save a lot of time on brew day!)

Cheers,
Darren
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 9886
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dgarvey981 wrote:
Hi Kal, Can you elaborate a little bit more on this? Specifically what parts would be needed... I assume a few more heating element kits, receptacles, an on/off switch (?) and another 50A gfci breaker in the incoming power supply?

These would be questions for your electrician as what you need will vary based on local code and what sort of breaker panel you have already. If you install a sub-panel just for the one breaker then the brand/type of breaker doesn't necessarily have to match the main panel. Normally the main panel isn't located near the brewing setup so a sub-panel with breaker is used. The breaker in the sub-panel is used an an on/off switch for the heating element. You'd simply be asking your electrician to install a 30A/240V locking receptacle that mates with what you have on the heating element cord, and that outlet needs to be protected by a 30A/240V GFI breaker in a sub-panel located nearby. This is very straight forward for any electrician and they'd be able to do this properly and safely, to code, based on your room layout. What exact parts you need depends on the electrical code where you live and possibly what type of electrical panel you have (different panels use different breaker brands) so I can't be specific. Your electrician will know what to do. It's very straight forward.

Quote:
Do a lot of people do this? Any photo examples out there??

Many brewers have told me they've done this but I don't have numbers. I provide information for free so I don't know how exactly how many have implemented this. I don't have any photos either. Not much to see: A locking receptacle and a breaker in a separate box somewhere. Wink

Given that this work is part of the electrical system of the building it should be done by a certified electrician and the work permitted/verified. I don't recommend someone attempt doing this themselves if they do not understand what's involved / how to safely do this / what the local electrical code in your area requires in terms of placement, wiring, etc.

Quote:
Lastly, in theory, would the overall power consumption be about the same on a brew day? You'd be using twice the watts, but for half the time, rather than half the watts for twice the time. Basically the same? (Though you'd save a lot of time on brew day!)

I theory yes, I suppose it would be roughly the same overall power consumption.

Good luck!

Kal

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Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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pmcint01



Joined: 02 Feb 2015
Posts: 20



PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were making a second panel in order to run another set of elements simultaneously and I decide not to install the Volt and Amp meters, do I still need the 50A shunt?


Thanks,
Paul
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