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Electric brewing with 5 gallon batches: Several questions

 
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Racer X




Joined: 16 Mar 2011
Posts: 3



PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:14 am    Post subject: Electric brewing with 5 gallon batches: Several questions Reply with quote


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Well, since this is my first post on the board, I will start off by introducing myself. I am a 26 year old transplant from Northern Ontario, currently living in the Halifax, N.S. I am a bit of a mad scientist, so the craft of brewing has always appealed to me. I started out by brewing with extracts until I was handed a pint of craft brewed goodness, and my beer horizons have been expanding ever since. That being said, I have a lot to learn, and am always looking for ways to improve my beers.

I am in the process of fitting my brewing set-up with electric elements. I have begun collecting miscellaneous pieces to build a control panel, (already have a PID) and have generally been trying to soak up as much info as possible. I am pretty handy in many areas, but electricity is NOT one of them! Please help me out by answering a few questions and giving me any other info which may be helpful. Don't be afraid to type in very basic terms. Laughing

My current brewery is set-up for 5 gallon batches. (8 gallon SS kettle) Boils start with about 6.5 gallons of wort, and mashing water comes out of the tap at about 120f. As it stands, I heat strike and sparge water on my electric stove. I mash in a 10 gallon cooler, and use gravity to move water/wort around. (No pumps at all) I boil on my electric stove-top, which is a painfully long experience. (It takes about 60 minutes to get a very marginal boil going from mashing temps) I cool wort with a copper immersion chiller, and ferment in either glass carboys, or converted sanke kegs.

So here are a few questions:

What size element would best suit my needs? I would like to heat to mashing temp (using the PID of course) and then be able to perform a full stand-alone boil in a reasonable amount of time. (My stovetop takes about 60 minutes to reach boiling point, so any improvement on that would be good) PROBLEM: I am mystified by the electric capacity of my house. The place we are renting has a couple of old panels in the entrance way, and from what I can tell, everything is running off a couple of 15a circuits. That being said, we have a full oven and washer + dryer with 240v plugs, so is it possible that I am simply misreading the panel, or maybe there is a panel hidden somewhere? We are renting, so adding a dedicated GFCI panel for brewing is not an option. Would it be helpful to post a photo of the panels?

Does a 240v 3000w element = 2x 120v 1500w elements? Do they produce the same amount of heat, and do they draw the same amount of power?

Features of the control panel... Well I am imagining a key selector switch for main power, heating element power (just to make sure I don't accidentally dry fire the element) and the PID to regulate the temp of the element for either mashing or boiling. Very simple, right? What would be the best way to go about this? All of the designs I see on here are much more elaborate, and make me pretty envious! That being said, I am a student, so for the time being, I will stick to simple 5 gallon batches.

Thanks for creating the website, and any advice/ideas you can offer.

Cheers,

-Pat
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milldoggy




Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 569
Location: Pottstown, PA


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A photo of the panel would help. You could keep it real simple and make a heatstick or use a Marshall bucket heater and your stove at the same time. You can run a 240 element at 120 but the btu rating is divided by 4. You will need at least a 20 amp circuit to do this. You could use your stove or dryer plug to run your element at 240. Does the dryer have a 3 prong or 4? For your panel, you can follow Karl design, just eleminate one pid, one ssr, one relay, or build as is for future expansion.
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi! Welcome to the forum!

Quote:
Does a 240v 3000w element = 2x 120v 1500w elements? Do they produce the same amount of heat, and do they draw the same amount of power?


A watt is a watt, so a 240V/3000W element produces the same amount of heat as two 120V/1500W elements. This is course if you run the elements are designed (the 3000W element at 240V and the two 1500W elements at 120V).

They would draw the same amount of power: 3000W total. How it gets there is different of course: One set uses 120V, the other 240V. POWER = VOLTAGE x CURRENT. So if you use twice as much voltage (240V instead of 120V) you only need half as much current to get the same power. Larger current requires thicker wire which is more expensive, hence the reason why high power elements are always 240V. It's more cost effective.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Racer X




Joined: 16 Mar 2011
Posts: 3



PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Appreciate the replies, guys.

milldoggy wrote:
A photo of the panel would help.


Photos are relatively high-res, I am not sure if this board resizes them or not, but here it goes:









milldoggy wrote:
You could keep it real simple and make a heatstick or use a Marshall bucket heater and your stove at the same time. You can run a 240 element at 120 but the btu rating is divided by 4. You will need at least a 20 amp circuit to do this. You could use your stove or dryer plug to run your element at 240. Does the dryer have a 3 prong or 4? For your panel, you can follow Karl design, just eleminate one pid, one ssr, one relay, or build as is for future expansion.


I am pretty weary of building/using a heatstick, I would be more comfortable with a fixed element in the kettle I think. It would be different if there was someone building these and selling them (peace of mind) but I would be paranoid using something like that after reading the concerns of some HBT'ers. Not sure what plug the dryer uses since the units are sort of "built in" to a closet area. I can't really access the plug there, however, the oven definitely uses a 4-prong plug and is easily accessible.

Kal wrote:
A watt is a watt, so a 240V/3000W element produces the same amount of heat as two 120V/1500W elements. This is course if you run the elements are designed (the 3000W element at 240V and the two 1500W elements at 120V).

They would draw the same amount of power: 3000W total. How it gets there is different of course: One set uses 120V, the other 240V.


Just making sure... So I guess the only thing left to sort out is to decide how much power I have at my disposal, and how much power I need to get that volume of water or wort heated/boiling.[/quote]
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Grandequeso




Joined: 17 Mar 2011
Posts: 36
Location: Jacksonville, Fl


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:05 am    Post subject: Electric may not be your best option. Reply with quote

Whatever you do stay away from your panel. Those old fuse boxes are no joke, you can easily hurt yourself, or break something inside of it, & good luck finding parts


You might have a four wire cord coming out of your range, but it's extremely unlikely that there is a separate neutral and ground ran there from the panel. They didn't really start running 4 wire to ranges and dryers until the late 1970's / mid 1980s at the earliest. With that being said you really should run gfci protection to anything you rig up, as it's very common for there to be no ground wire to anything in those older buildings. Don't think there is a ground just because you see a three or four prong receptacle. Its very common that someone changed the old plugs out for newer three prong type just to "spruce the place up". All that being said, if there are no gfcis in your kitchen you could cut the cord off of a hairdryer that has a gfci at the end of it. (pretty much all new hairdryers do these days.) Use that cord to rig up a 1500 watt 120volt element. I don't know that a 1500watt element is going to heat up much faster than the burner on your stove. Your range likely has a set of 40 or 50 amp fuses in the panel. The price of cord caps and gfci protection for those larger size conductors adds up pretty quick and that doesnt address the fact that you'd still need to reduce your overcurrent protection (fuse) from 50 amps to 30 amps, if you're going to build a setup like Kal's. I personally don't believe that it would be worth spending well over a hundred dollars just to get temporary power to your boil kettle. I love my electric setup. It works well for me, but its not the best solution for everyone. You could get a used propane tank and turkey fryer for under a hundred dollars and get the faster boil times that you want.
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Sparky




Joined: 17 Dec 2010
Posts: 217
Location: Muir Beach, California


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Racer X,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the pictures. Nice that you have a "historical" panel. I love it, no main, bwaaa-haaa-haa. Nothing wrong with it, it is just old. Now, you have a couple options.
(1) Upgrade the panel: This will get you a properly grounded panel and you can ask for a deduction on your homeowners insurance since you got rid of fuses.
(2) Sub panel: looks like you have that, but it is limited to 120V. This will limit your options.
(3) Splice tap: Well, forget this option, unless you really, REALLY know what you are doing, but it is an option if you want me to walk you through it. But, it would be better to do a panel upgrade. The only reason I list this is that you say you are a "mad scientist," but it will take some load calc's, wire analysis, etc. to pull off.

I think, based on your requirements, go with a panel upgrade to get a proper 240V, grounded, with neutral. If it was me, I would go for a 40/40 panel (full size breakers) and 200 amp service. In San Francisco, that will cost you $3,250 including the permit, parts, labor.
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milldoggy




Joined: 23 Dec 2010
Posts: 569
Location: Pottstown, PA


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think he said he is renting, I would move. Kal said he is selling his place, comes with a bar and brewery Smile
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Racer X




Joined: 16 Mar 2011
Posts: 3



PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies, guys.

I think I will have to be patient with this one. We are actually in the midst of preliminary planning to buy a place, but that will take some time. I'm going to be honest, when we moved in, the electrical panel was not even a consideration for me.

So I suppose my only smart option is to box up my PID and other miscellaneous parts for a while, and in the meantime build a small 120v heatstick to help supplement stovetop boils... Of course, these come with their own set of problems. Laughing

Mug
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