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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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sjch
Joined: 16 Dec 2010 Posts: 46 Location: Norway
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Coming back to those flow rates vs tube diameter.
It doesnt make sense to me, because of two things:
- its all about getting turbulent flow, rather than laminar flow, to get proper heat exchange between the two fluids
0.5 inch ID tubing requires about 0.3 gallon/minute flow rate to ensure turbulent flow (calculation for water at 20 degrees, numbers will vary with temperature and hence density and viscosity)
5/16 inch ID tubing under the same conditions requires about 0.2 gallon/minute flow rate to achieve turbulent flow.
Now everyone can have his or her favourite flow rate, but it will always be higher than these values.
- Also, the difference in diameter (1/2 inch versus 5/16 inch) is a restriction, sure. But how can it bother a pump that can handle several gallons per minute and has in- and outlet that are even smaller than the here mentioned restricted 5/16 inches?
Just trying to figure out if the 5/16 inch precoiled beverage coolers really would be troublesome or not.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | - its all about getting turbulent flow, rather than laminar flow, to get proper heat exchange between the two fluids
0.5 inch ID tubing requires about 0.3 gallon/minute flow rate to ensure turbulent flow (calculation for water at 20 degrees, numbers will vary with temperature and hence density and viscosity)
5/16 inch ID tubing under the same conditions requires about 0.2 gallon/minute flow rate to achieve turbulent flow. |
I don't see any of this as relevant. It may be relevant if the two liquids have temps that have a large difference such as in the chiller (boiling wort being chilled by cold ground water) but we don't here. We're heating wort up at most a degree or two to make up for losses. We're using the HERMS coil to mostly *maintain* heat. The two liquids will at most be off by a degree or two. So efficiencies in heat transfer do not matter.
Even when you mash out the HLT starts to heat up the spare water from (say) 150F to 168F, it does so reasonably slowly (takes about 15-20 mins) while the wort is constantly recirculated. The wort temp keeps up without any problems with the HLT temp.
sjch wrote: | - Also, the difference in diameter (1/2 inch versus 5/16 inch) is a restriction, sure. But how can it bother a pump that can handle several gallons per minute and has in- and outlet that are even smaller than the here mentioned restricted 5/16 inches? |
The flow rate quoted by the manufacturer is the max and assumes zero flow restriction which means basically no pipe on the input, no pipe on the output. Put any length of pipe on the in/out and the flow rate will slow down due to restriction.
The pumps I use have 3/4" inlet and 1/2" outlet. That's not smaller than 5/16".
Quote: | Just trying to figure out if the 5/16 inch precoiled beverage coolers really would be troublesome or not. |
Absolutely everything I've read says to avoid going below 1/2" ID (to say 3/8") if you want to avoid problems. Lots of people want to use smaller diameter coil because it's cheaper. Everyone always tells them to not do it if they want to avoid problems.
5/16" is even smaller. I think it would cause problems.
Kal
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My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Last edited by kal on Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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iowabrewer
Joined: 16 Dec 2010 Posts: 53 Location: stranded in Iowa
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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@crush - is side betting alowed.
Given Kal's comment I will most likely stay with the 1/2" OD tubing. I'm not that far into the build so I am hoping the interwebs will produce a chunk of ss-tubing already coiled. I'm more cheap than lazy and only want to purchase this item once.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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iowabrewer wrote: | I'm not that far into the build so I am hoping the interwebs will produce a chunk of ss-tubing already coiled. I'm more cheap than lazy and only want to purchase this item once. |
I've already sent a note off to my manufacturing guy to see if this is something he is interested in selling separately. We'll see!
It's not just complete systems and control panels that I'd like to eventually offer up through this site, and have built by my manufacturing guy... but lots of the odds and ends and other things that people don't want to do themselves. We'll see how it goes!
Kal
_________________ Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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Enggboy
Joined: 25 Jan 2011 Posts: 7 Location: Edmonton, AB
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:38 pm Post subject: Pump Curve |
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I hope this diagram helps:
http://www.marchpump.com/site/files/966/110033/376591/517047/Performance_Curve.pdf
It is the pump curve for the exact pumps that Kal uses. These are a centrifugal pump and all centrifugal pumps are affected by both pressure (head) and flow. What this shows is the capacity of the pump and its relationship to flow and pressure. Now, this pump has to follow the solid line no matter what. If you increase the pressure of the line, flow must go down, and if you want more flow you have to decrease the pressure.
Going by some quick and dirty calcs, usingthe 5/16" line versus the 1/2" line will cause a little less than a doubling of the pressure drop (across the coil alone), which on this pump means that your flow will drop by about 1/2 (it is a fairly linear pump across the upper 2/3rds of its flow).
Quote: | Quote: | sjch wrote:
- Also, the difference in diameter (1/2 inch versus 5/16 inch) is a restriction, sure. But how can it bother a pump that can handle several gallons per minute and has in- and outlet that are even smaller than the here mentioned restricted 5/16 inches? |
The flow rate quoted by the manufacturer is the max and assumes zero flow restriction which means basically no pipe on the input, no pipe on the output. Put any length of pipe on the in/out and the flow rate will slow down due to restriction.
The pumps I use have 3/4" inlet and 1/2" outlet. That's not smaller than 5/16".
Quote: |
Just trying to figure out if the 5/16 inch precoiled beverage coolers really would be troublesome or not. |
Absolutely everything I've read says to avoid going below 1/2" ID (to say 3/8") if you want to avoid problems. Lots of people want to use smaller diameter coil because it's cheaper. Everyone always tells them to not do it if they want to avoid problems.
5/16" is even smaller. I think it would cause problems.
Kal |
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rosenjm
Joined: 21 Dec 2010 Posts: 249 Location: Ballston Spa, NY
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Link Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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OK, so during my second attempt to make the HERMS coil, just as I was about to throw the tubing through the wall, I had a brilliant idea. I built this form using leftover scraps of lumber. Each arm is about 15" apart, making the coil just about the right size (I hope). The hardest part was getting it started, but once the first "row" was in it was a matter of slowly pulling the coil over each arm of the form, around and around. Now that it is in the form, I'll zip tie it to hold in place.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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rosenjm
Joined: 21 Dec 2010 Posts: 249 Location: Ballston Spa, NY
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Link Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Kal,
What is the diameter of your coil? I'm having one heck of a time getting the compression fittings attached. There just doesn't seem to be enough room. My coil is about 15" in diameter, the kettle is about 17.5", which I had hoped would be enough. I'm afraid to flex the tail pieces of the coil any more as they are on the hairy edge of kinking up on me. There has got to be an easier way to do this!
Just to add insult to injury, in the course of trying to install the coil, it "sprung" a bit, I think due to the zip ties slipping. End result it the coil is now shorter than it was in the form by about 2.5". That is going to make lining it up with the ball valve impossible. I might have to start getting creative...I know I have a roll of duct tape around here somewhere...
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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goatbrewer
Joined: 04 Jan 2011 Posts: 14 Location: Walla Walla
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Link Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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I had to go with 90 degree elbows before the compression fittings on my build. Getting a tight enough bend to go straight into the side wall was beyond my abilities... The only problem is now the ball valves don't line up with the handle on top. I guess I'll have to live with that unless someone has a suggestion...
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11116 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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rosenjm
Joined: 21 Dec 2010 Posts: 249 Location: Ballston Spa, NY
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Link Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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I think he means that in order to get the elbows to point in the right direction, and be tight enough to keep everything from leaking the ball valves aren't straight up and down.
I think that is the direction I'm gonna go with this. I tried to bend the ends just like Kal did, but I still am having trouble getting the ends of the tube into the compression fittings without flexing the tube a lot. 2 elbows are cheap enough not to risk it.
Last edited by rosenjm on Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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iowabrewer
Joined: 16 Dec 2010 Posts: 53 Location: stranded in Iowa
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Link Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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@goatbrewer a couple photos would be very helpful. I am going to go with the elbows too and would like to know what I'm getting into. I just got my tubing coiled. It helps to know folks with lots of tools!
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longarmbrewing
Joined: 16 Dec 2010 Posts: 74 Location: WA
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Link Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:33 am Post subject: .. |
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Yes we would love to see some of these photo's with the 90 degree setup. Before I plunk another $70 down on a coil this sounds like I might be able to salvage this monster part of this project. Personally out of the entire project this is the one thing that has totally stymied me.
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rosenjm
Joined: 21 Dec 2010 Posts: 249 Location: Ballston Spa, NY
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Link Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:33 am Post subject: Re: .. |
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longarmbrewing wrote: | Personally out of the entire project this is the one thing that has totally stymied me. |
I agree! It is the only thing holding me up from completion.
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goatbrewer
Joined: 04 Jan 2011 Posts: 14 Location: Walla Walla
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Link Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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I am away from home until late next week. I will try to get some pictures of what I did, though it's not pretty. Hopefully it does't leak at the compression fittings. I had to travel before I had a chance to run water through it. You are correct rosenjm about the ball valves. To get them tight, the handles of the ball valves are not sitting at 12:00. One is at 3:00 and the other is at 5:00. I also did not go with the Blichman for my boil kettle or my HLT so the diameter is larger thus allowing my coil to not have to be bent in as tight a radius as a Blichman.
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rosenjm
Joined: 21 Dec 2010 Posts: 249 Location: Ballston Spa, NY
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Link Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:19 am Post subject: |
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Done! All I have to do is leak test it. I ended up going with a couple of these puppies:
McMaster Carr part #5943K216 (can't figure out how to link to it)
A bit spendy, but much, much, much easier to get the coil in there. I went with the one piece fittings to try and minimize potential leakage. I finally have all my parts in. Tie up some loose ends this weekend and it is time to brew!
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Feurhund
Joined: 01 Feb 2011 Posts: 89
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Link Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:16 am Post subject: |
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I am having the worst time with the coil. I was going really slow in mold I made and still kinked it slightly about 2 feet into the coil. I have stopped for the night to calm down and not do more damage. Is a slight kink, about 30% closed off a problem? Also if I cut off the 2 feet will the 48 foot coil be that much less efficient? Thanks.
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rosenjm
Joined: 21 Dec 2010 Posts: 249 Location: Ballston Spa, NY
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Link Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:46 am Post subject: |
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I think you'll be fine if you cut off 2 feet, if anything you'd just have to throttle back you wort flow through the coil. You are better off being 2 feet short than to have a kink, which could be a possible fail point. I feel your pain on this. I went through 2 50' sections of tubing and a handfull of different fittings before I finally got mine in. It isn't as pretty as Kal's, but I think it will work. I would seriously consider the 90deg fittings I mentioned above, it made the installation so much easier.
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