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Temp probes suddenly way off

 
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motorbear25




Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 7



PostLink    Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 9:26 pm    Post subject: Temp probes suddenly way off Reply with quote


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I've had and used my system for about two years a bit less than I would like. One issue I've not had are temperature problems. Was just brewing a batch and mashing and noted the mash temp was 10-12 degrees higher than the HLT....which obviously doesn't make sense. I've not had this issue on prior brews with everything as it should be when tested with a thermapen. I found the HLT temp probe was reading about 12 degrees low leading to higher than desired mash temps? Is this sudden failure in calibration indicative of a failed temp probe or should I be looking at something else. Just seemed sudden.

Thanks!
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi!

Temp probes are precision resistors whose resistance changes with temperature. Sudden changes means you have a bad connection somewhere between the measuring device (usually a PID if you're following our design) and the temperature probe tip which causes (usually) extra resistance throwing the reading off. This is most often from physical damage.
Check your cables/connectors, fix as required.

If it gets bad enough, eventually the measuring device will throw an error to indicate it can no longer "see" the probe tip. In our design that would be the PID displaying an "orAL" error.

More here on this along with some troubleshooting tips and ideas/steps to fix it: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/control-panel-troubleshooting#One_of_my_PIDs_is_displaying_orAL_What_does_that_mean

Cheers!

Kal

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motorbear25




Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 7



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2023 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still having an issue that I hope you can help with.
I purchased new pre-built cables from the shop figuring I can have the old ones as spares if I damaged one. I ran my HLT tank to a set temp verified by a thermapen and calibrated the PID appropriately. The PID matched the temp the thermapen and I started my brew day. I watched as the HLT element turned on/off intermittently at the set temp (150) AFter a short time, about 20 min into the mash, I noted the mash temp was 165 but the HLT was still indicating 150. I measured and confirmed with the thermapen the mash and the HLT were at 165. The HLT PID still indicated 150 and the burner was turning on and off intermitantly to maintain the temp. These are new cables for all three probes so I don't believe cabling is the issue.

What else can I do to trouble shoot this. The PD went from matching the actual temp to reading 20 degrees low. I calibrated at 120 on my way up to mash for what it's worth

I did a second test following the brew and found it still 18-20 degrees off when the PID returned to zero in the temp calibration mode
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2023 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a problem. We can help. I'm having issues following exactly what you're doing and also don't know your setup or what you've built. Can you offer more details on your setup?

motorbear25 wrote:
I ran my HLT tank to a set temp verified by a thermapen and calibrated the PID appropriately. The PID matched the temp the thermapen and I started my brew day. I watched as the HLT element turned on/off intermittently at the set temp (150)

Ok, that's good. If you set your HLT PID to 150F and the temp in the HLT holds at 150F, that's good. That's expected.

motorbear25 wrote:
AFter a short time, about 20 min into the mash, I noted the mash temp was 165 but the HLT was still indicating 150.

That's odd. It doesn't make sense. If you built per our design, the mash temp follows the HLT temp and can't go above because the mash only gets heat from the HLT. It can't go above as it's impossible. There's no way the mash can get to 165F if you have a HERMS setup built to our design and the HLT is confirmed as holding at 150F. There's something we're missing here...

motorbear25 wrote:
I measured and confirmed with the thermapen the mash and the HLT were at 165.

But wait, above you said the HLT was at 150F, as set. How did your HLT now jump to 165F? We're missing some details here. If the HLT was previously set to 150F and holding at 150F, how is it now 165F? What does the HLT PID display at this time?

motorbear25 wrote:
The HLT PID still indicated 150 and the burner was turning on and off intermitantly to maintain the temp.

You mentioned burner. Are you using a gas fired setup and not electric? The more details about your setup you can provide the better.

motorbear25 wrote:
I did a second test following the brew and found it still 18-20 degrees off when the PID returned to zero in the temp calibration mode

What was 18-20 degrees off? MLT or HLT?

I'm suspecting there's something in your process that hasn't been mentioned yet that is causing something odd. We need more details. Pictures/videos of what you're going along with details on what you've built will help us help you troubleshoot. We need more information on what you've build and how exactly you're using it. It could be not a connection issue but a process issue. Once we have more details we can offer recommendations.

Cheers!

Kal

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motorbear25




Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 7



PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2023 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dang....I reviewed what I wrote and it definitely looks like a "rough draft" and full of holes. I'll try again:

For background, my system is an electric brewery system purchased entirely on your site as a kit including all parts. I assembled it following your directions. I made no modifications. Due to work and family obligations, I've only brewed approximately 10 batches with moderate success. Any failings have been mine and not the system. The system has worked well up until the last batch prior to today. I checked all temps with my thermapen, especially with the first few after the build, and all temps (HLT, Mash, and boil) were accurate within a degree or two. I brewed an IPA last month with no issues and it was actually pretty good I think.

My last batch: I set the HLT at the appropriate temp for the mash. The HLT reached the correct temp and I mashed in following your process. I still go through the process reading your brew day "step by step" as I'm very much a novice. ONce at the set temp on the PID, the HLT element light turned off and on intermittently indicating the element was firing and maintaining the HLT temp. The mash temp soon matched the HLT temp as expected and settled. I turned my attention away for a bit after mashing in. Approximately 15-20 minutes later, I noted the mash temp per the mash PID was 10-12 degrees higher than the HLT temp (per the HLT PID). I measured the temps of the mash and water in the HLT with my thermapen and found the mash and HLT measured 10-12 degrees higher than the set temp on the PID for the HLT. The HLT PID still indicated the originally temp despite the water measuring 10-12 degrees higher. That is why I initially suspected a failed temp probe. I received no errors on the PID. All other PIDS and temp probes appeared to be working properly and I verified all temps with the thermapen.

Suspecting a failed cable per your guidance, I ordered a new set of assembled cables to eliminate damage I may have inadvertently caused (nothing visible) figuring I could use the old as spares should something happen.

Today, using the new cables., I started the day bringing the HLT up to 120 degrees and returned the calibration setting on the PID to "0" in the "Pb" setting. I found the water temp in the HLT was about two degrees cooler than the PID indicated and I adjusted the setting so the water temp and the PID indicated temp matched. I then proceeded with my brew day. I raised the HLT to 150 for mashing and transferred water to the mash tun. I allowed the mash water to circulate through the coil to match temps with the HLT. I mashed in. Approximately 20 minutes after mashing in, I took a peek into the mash tun and noted it was pretty warm. I looked at the panel and saw the mash PID indicated a temp of 165+ while the HLT PID still indicated 150. I understand this shouldn't be possible. I checked the temp of the liquid in the mash tun and the HLT with my thermapen and found they matched temps at 165 while the HLT PID still indicated 150. The HLT element light had been turning on and off intermittently as expected to maintain temp in the HLT.

I continued with my brew day despite the issues. After the boil, I added water to the HLT. I set the PID to 150 and turned on the element. Upon reaching 150 per the PID, I measured the water temp and found it was about 18-19 degrees higher. I did not change the calibration.

I know it's rare, but still wondering if there is an issue with the HLT temp probe or I've inadvertently changed some setting on the HLT PID causing this.

I'm hoping that is sufficient detail. It's a frustrating problem.

Thanks for your patience.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2023 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the extra details!

motorbear25 wrote:
Suspecting a failed cable per your guidance, I ordered a new set of assembled cables to eliminate damage I may have inadvertently caused (nothing visible) figuring I could use the old as spares should something happen.


It may not just be the cable that has (or had) a bad connection. Read this again:
https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/control-panel-troubleshooting#One_of_my_PIDs_is_displaying_orAL_What_does_that_mean

For any PID showing a temp, if the temp reading is jumping around or changes all of a sudden it's a bad connection somewhere between the PID and the temperature probe tip. There's more than just the cable between the sensor at the end of the probe tip and the PID. That bad connection can be in the tip itself, in the connection between the tip and cable, in the connection between the cable and the control panel, in the control panel between the control panel temperature probe XLR and the PID.

So just replacing the temp probe cable isn't always enough. You need to look at the entire "system" from temp probe tip all the way to the PID. You have 3 "systems" so you can swap parts to figure out where the issue is. Since your issue continues, it's likely not just the cable.

Quite often it seems the issue is at the connection point between the temp probe cable and the temp probe tip from twisting/turning the two together (that shouldn't be done - the tabs need to be lined up and the two parts pushed together). Sometimes the twisting/turning will cause the little sensor wires in the temp probe tip to disconnect from the soldered connection inside the temp probe tip connector and it'll touch intermittently. As the temperature goes up/down things expand/contract causing changes in resistance from the (now) poor connection.

See the link above for how to resoldering the temp probe tip inside.

That's the first thing I'd check.

Good luck!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Mon Jun 19, 2023 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2023 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking about this some more, I would also make sure that your HLT PID is set up to only be able to run in AUTO mode (temperature based) and isn't able to go into MANUAL mode (duty cycle). See our CONTROL PANEL (SETUP) guide. If you allow modes both to be used then maybe you switched to MANUAL mode by accident but are still displaying AUTO values.

A PID can be displaying AUTOMATIC or MANUAL mode numbers regardless of what mode it's actually running in which can cause confusion. Press the SET button to switch display modes if what you see in the lower green SET VALUE (SV) number doesn't match what the "A-M" light shows.

Long shot, but something to check.

More here: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/control-panel-troubleshooting#My_heating_element_isnt_firing_or_firing_continuously

Cheers!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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motorbear25




Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Posts: 7



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My struggles continue.
I replaced the HLT temp probe with a new one using new cables. Prior to installing, I heated a 2 cup measuring cup of water to 150 and hooked up the new probe and new cable to a known good PID (tried mash and Boil PID). The temperature was accurate when the sample was measured with the new probe, thermapen, and hooked up to both the boil and mash PID. It was consistently 15-20 degrees off (measuring lower than actual) when hooked up to the HLT PID. I had purchased two new temp probes and did the test with the other new one getting the same results of 15-20 degrees off. I had checked my thermapen for accuracy using boiling water prior to all these tests.

It appears all temp probes and cables are good based on my testing. I suspect there is an issue between the HLT temp probe input plug in the panel and the PID or with the PID itself. I did check and was running the PID in auto mode. I did notice as well that when the HLT PID displayed matching SV and PV, the element would begin turning on and off based on the panel display and amp usage consistent with the auto mode usage. I also went through the settings on the HLT and MASH PIDs and found they matched. I reviewed the build guidance from the site and all the settings appear correct. I inspected the condition inside the panel and everything looked good. The control panel has never been dropped or abused.

What should I check next? I suppose I could re-solder the input cable connections but those appear undamaged. The PID appears to be working correctly except for the wildly inaccurate temps.

I should also note that the temp inaccuracy is greater at higher temps. When just tested (I tested again) at actual temp of 132, the PID read 127. As the water in the HLT increases, the disparity also increases (water temp 148, displayed temp in PID 138.....at 150, the HLT PID reads 10 low 150 displayed, 160 actual)
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2023 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

motorbear25 wrote:
I suspect there is an issue between the HLT temp probe input plug in the panel and the PID or with the PID itself.

That could be. It's what I this in my post above here that you may have missed:
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=334071#334071

That's where I'd start. As mentioned in that post you have 3 "systems" you can use for testing. Swap around by switching to which XLR input you use, see what the problem follows. My guess is a poor (cold) solder joint on your XLR input receptacle for the HLT but it could be the PID itself too. Swapping between the 3 "systems" will let you pinpoint the issue.

Good luck!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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KB




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 334
Location: Virginia

Working on: Next brew


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal,
I had a similar problem awhile ago. Thanks for the link to the following as I will check my cables. I "solved" my problem by purchasing new cables (and a few spares).

"The most common reason for the error on systems that worked previously is physical damage to the temperature probe and / or cable. You can test by swapping with a known working temperature probe and cable. If you suspect the cable, try swapping just the cable.

The connection point between the temperature probe tip and cable can be damaged if one is not careful when disconnecting / reconnecting the cable and the connectors are twisted and / or turned when connecting instead of lining up the tabs and pushing them together straight. There's a little tab that needs to be lined up when you mate the two halves together. To connect / disconnect, the tabs need to be lined up and pushed together. They should NEVER BE TWISTED / TURNED as you may damage one or both ends. Twisting / turning can pull apart the wires inside the connector.

If twisting / turning caused damage and you are handy with a soldering iron, you can easily repair the probe yourself. Remove the four small screws from the back of the probe and slide the resistor and cable end out of the probe (you should not have to remove it from the kettle or tee). You will see one end of the resistor soldered to pin #2, and the other side soldered to either pin #1 or #3 with a jumper between the two. One of those points is most likely broken and/or making intermittent contact. A quick re-soldering is all that is needed. To get into the connector on the cable, plug the cable end into one of the probes to prevent it from spinning and rotate the winged portion counter clockwise and it will unscrew from the other section allowing you access to the connections. We recommend desoldering all 3 wires (if not already detached), trimming them back a little, and making sure there is a good solder connection."
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2023 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To close the loop on this:

I emailed motorbear25 and they mentioned that they fixed the issue by redoing their soldering on the xlr connectors in their DIY panel kit. They then had a successful brew day and all temps were where they were supposed to be. Likely a poor (cold) solder joint as I suspected.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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