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Weizen / Weissbier
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Enigma9944




Joined: 28 Nov 2022
Posts: 10



PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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I usually get a Brewhouse efficiency of around 74%. What I normally do, before mash in I'll take 2 gallons of water out of the 5 I begin with to mash, and leave it in a pot. This brew, due to the initial lower temp rest before the mash, means my sparge water was cooler than normal. It's the first time I've brewed with wheat, reading around some people are saying they get a 10% drop in efficiency. Some also say for wheat a hotter sparge is important.

I usually stir during the mash, but this time I didn't, but had the recirc running through a perf top plate.

The brew is done now. Yeast took off like a rocket, and I've hit FG two and a half days later.

If the GU:BU is out of balance due to the lower gravity, does that mean it will be more bitter, have a perception of higher bitterness of just be out of balance?

Thanks for your advice Kal, this site is brilliant.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enigma9944 wrote:
It's the first time I've brewed with wheat, reading around some people are saying they get a 10% drop in efficiency.

They probably have poor recirculation. On my 3-vessel design documented here I keep the same 95% mash efficiency on my wits and weizens that are around 5% ABV.

Enigma9944 wrote:
Some also say for wheat a hotter sparge is important.

Again, probably because they have poor recirculation. A high temp makes it flow easier as it's thinner.

Every setup is different (and process is different too from one brewer to the next) so important to work with what you have and compensate as required. What works on one setup/process doesn't necessarily work the same on another.

Quote:
If the GU:BU is out of balance due to the lower gravity, does that mean it will be more bitter, have a perception of higher bitterness of just be out of balance?

The IBU will be the same because you used the same amount of hops, but it'll taste more bitter because of the lower ABV. You can brew a 50 IBU IPA that's 6% that will taste more bitter than a 100 IBU barley wine that's 12%. As far as perceived bitterness is concerned, nany will say that BU:GU is more important than just the raw IBU number. I would tend to agree.

Enigma9944 wrote:
Thanks for your advice Kal, this site is brilliant.

Thanks and cheers!

Kal

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Enigma9944




Joined: 28 Nov 2022
Posts: 10



PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal. What are your thoughts about serving this from the fermenter, or am I better to transfer it to a keg?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what fermenter you use or how you plan on serving so it's hard to comment. I recommend carbonate this beer to higher than normal levels of around 2.5 to 3.5 volumes of CO2. After that how you serve is entirely up to you. If you have a fermenter that is under pressure (can take pressure) and can serve correctly, it's certainly an option.

Kal

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Enigma9944




Joined: 28 Nov 2022
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kal, it is an Apollo Snub Nose. Can take a fair amount of pressure, easily to 20-30psi required for carbonation. My only concern is leaving it on the yeast for too long. Heck, YOLO, I’m going to do it and see how it goes.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A classic Weizen in the bottle sits on yeast the whole time. Try it both ways, see which you prefer. Cheers!

Kal

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Enigma9944




Joined: 28 Nov 2022
Posts: 10



PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. Reporting back. It finished up at 3.7% due to the losses in efficiency at the beginning. But the taste is out of this world. Classic banana and clove tones. With a slight citrus taste too. Can't wait to do again to meet BJCP guidelines. Only problem is, I carbonated to 20psi, increased beer line to 16.5 feet, but it's ridiculously foamy when pouring. Trying to serve at 20psi, the extra beer line length should be right. Maybe it's just overcarbonated.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi!

I don't know how many volumes of CO2 (carbonation level) you have as carb level is a function of pressure and temp. Assuming standard fridge temp (38F) at 20 PSI you'll end up with 3.3 volumes of CO2 which is on the higher side of the 2.5 to 3.5 volumes of CO2 I'd recommend for a Weizen but still fine and probably what most people are used to in terms of carb level for this beer. That said, it's somewhat a personal choice too.

A volumes of CO2 chart:



I'm not sure why you have a lot of foam. There are many factors that can cause this from dirty lines to turbulence in the lines from things in the way of the flow, to how the taps work (i.e. some taps such as picnic taps will often foam up at higher serving pressures, some taps will foam if not opened all the way, etc.).

Kal

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Enigma9944




Joined: 28 Nov 2022
Posts: 10



PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kal, it is an Apollo Snub Nose. Can take a fair amount of pressure, easily to 20-30psi required for carbonation. My only concern is leaving it on the yeast for too long. Heck, YOLO, I’m going to do it and see how it goes.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enigma9944 wrote:
Hi Kal, it is an Apollo Snub Nose. Can take a fair amount of pressure, easily to 20-30psi required for carbonation. My only concern is leaving it on the yeast for too long. Heck, YOLO, I’m going to do it and see how it goes.

I'm having déjà vu. Wink You mentioned the exact same thing 19 days ago: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=333928#333928

Kal

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alphakry




Joined: 27 Oct 2018
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I'm about to make my 2nd batch!

I made a small mistake on the first attempt, adding the hops at the 90 minute mark instead of waiting the 30 minutes to add it at the 60 minute mark. I was a bit worried about it being too bitter but after some confidence boosting by Kal and some relaxing, not worrying and having a beer... I am happy to report, it came out quite awesome. Thanks again to Kal and this awesome community for another solid recipe!

One issue I noticed was that it cleared ultra quick for me. Admittedly, I store and serve all my beers at 35F (1.6C) - so this should be expected. So on this next run, I'm thinking of trying the little hack using flour.

Any suggestions on qty of flour for a 1BBL batch? I was guessing a scale up to about 4 tablespoons ?

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To each their own, but I wouldn't add flour or anything else for that matter to try and increase the cloudiness. Instead, jostle the keg periodically if you find it's clearing too much over time. It's also the reason why the style is often canned/bottled and has its own method serving/pouring that often includes swirling the last ounce or two in the can/bottle to ensure the settled yeast is included.

Kal

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alphakry




Joined: 27 Oct 2018
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal!

Fair enough, but if the kegs are kept close to freezing, wouldn't the sediment that would be jostled up by shaking it already be mostly gone from the subsequent pours that pull from the bottom of the keg where the sediment would be?

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. Not all sediment will be sucked up as the dip tube has a very tiny diameter. Sediment immediately next to the dip tube end may get sucked up but stuff that's settled out farther away will not. Agitating the keg will get that sediment back into solution for subsequent pours.

Kal

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alphakry




Joined: 27 Oct 2018
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK awesome, advice taken! I'm with you then on not relying on adding something into the beer that shouldn't be there. So flour be gone.

I am thinking of buying some new diptubes to cut and get down in that area for agitation during each pour, one of your other suggestions.

Would there be any concerns with carbonating over time using a longer dip tub on the gas-in side (or beer-in for that matter)? or any other considerations, especially if I end up doing it to all my kegs ?

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alphakry wrote:
I am thinking of buying some new diptubes to cut and get down in that area for agitation during each pour, one of your other suggestions.

Yeah, I've never done that myself but it's something that some brewers do. Same with the flour suggestion. I've never tried either. In fact, I rarely (purposely) jostle a weizen keg. I find that some clarify over time does not affect the flavour, and nobody drinking it is complaining. Wink

alphakry wrote:
Would there be any concerns with carbonating over time using a longer dip tub on the gas-in side (or beer-in for that matter)? or any other considerations, especially if I end up doing it to all my kegs ?

I wouldn't do it for all your kegs. I'd only use it on weizen kegs or kegs you want stirred up which to me is probably only weizen and wits. I wouldn't do anything permanently for that matter. If you want to try the longer gas-in dip tube on weizens, I'd replace the gas-in dip tube only on those beers.

No concerns with carbonation over time. It's a closed system and will carb the same way as the pressure is the same. The only thing I'd be concerned with with a gas in dip tube that reaches down into the beer is the possibility of suck-back into your gas line if you end up with situation where the pressure going down that line is removed (beer will be pushed up the gas line).

Kal

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alphakry




Joined: 27 Oct 2018
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very good point! Thankfully I had considered this (aka experienced and learned) - so I now use this inline check valve on any connections where that may happen:



I've convinced myself that carbing through the beer-out connection would be more efficient since it travels from bottom up - so that is how I connect my CO2 when carbonating over time. The use of that in-line valve helps ensure there is no suck back should pressures shift as you described.

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alphakry




Joined: 27 Oct 2018
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really love this beer. Brewing it up again today! Thanks Kal for another banger!

Quote:
The yeast we use is Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen yeast or White Labs WLP300 Hefeweizen Ale yeast (purported to be the same strain). We had high hopes for Fermentis Safbrew WB-06 dry yeast when it was first introduced as it is so much easier to use dry yeast, and we do get excellent results with their Safale US-05 and Saflager W-34/70 strains when used correctly. No such luck with WB-06 unfortunately. To us it tastes nowhere near as good as the liquid yeast after doing a split batch comparison. While WB-06 had some of the banana/clove character, it simply wasn't as vibrant or rich. It tasted (for lack of better words) "fake". Sort of like comparing real freshly squeezed orange juice to Tang. They both have an orange flavour, but one doesn't taste real.


I used US-05 last time and it came out great. I'd also like to experiment a bit with some other dry yeasts like W-34/70... can you comment on the "when used correctly" tip and what suggestions you may have? Do you vary the fermentation temperature or do any yeast mixing? I have some WB-06 as well and was thinking of experimenting with mixing that with a few of the aforementioned strains. Thoughts?

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can use any yeast you like of course, but when not using WY3068 or WLP300 per the recipe you won't get a beer that tastes like a (hefe)weizen. Per the recipe, using US-05 will give you something more like an American Wheat beer. A completely different taste. I'll sometimes split a batch between WY3068 and US-05. It's amazing how different the beer tastes.

My "when used correctly" tip was simply in the context that I find that other dry yeasts US-05 and W-34/70 work great "when used correctly" for whatever you're trying to produce, not necessarily this beer. Using correctly means proper pitch rate, aeration/oxygenation, a fermentation temp that makes sense for what you're trying to achieve, and so forth.

I mention in the recipe to ferment US-05 at around 66-68F (wort temp) but you can certainly experiment. I've never used W-34/70 in weizen wort but certainly no reason why you can't. It would produce something even more neutral than US-05. W-34/70 is typically fermented at around 50F (wort temp). You can check out some of the other recipes I've published that recommend W-34/70 for more info, or experiment any way you like.

I've never done any yeast mixing.

I don't like WB-06 (see the comment you quoted) so my recommendation is to not use it. Wink

But of course, feel free to experiment / do whatever you like.

Happy brewing!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Tue May 30, 2023 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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alphakry




Joined: 27 Oct 2018
Posts: 88



PostLink    Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok thanks Kal. I am going to experiment a bit on this batch and try some mix yeasting. I've had absolutely fantastic results mixing US-04 and S-33 for my NEIPAs, so i'll see about trying to get a bit creative with this wheat recipe, maybe mixing up some US-05 + WB-06 will help add some of those flavors without them being overpoweringly "fake" feeling. who knows, i will play. Thanks as always for the guidance!
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