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Brew Day Step by Step Strike Water Calculation Clarification

 
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KB




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 334
Location: Virginia

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PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Brew Day Step by Step Strike Water Calculation Clarification Reply with quote


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http://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/brew-day-step-by-step#STEP_3_Heat_strike_water

I need a clarification on the the "Brew Day Step by Step" write up, STEP 4: Transfer strike water to Mash / Lauter Tun, strike water calculation.

Strike water = (Mash Thickness * Pounds of Grain / 4) + dead space under false bottom + liquid in hoses = (1.5 * 18 / 4) + 0.22 + 0.5 = 7.5 gallons

We have 20 gallons in the HLT. Why does the liquid in the hoses (in this case 0.5) enter into the equation? We have plenty of hot water ready to go (20 gallons) in the HLT. We're trying to determine how much liquid we need in the MLT and how much water we need in the HLT (once again we have 20 gallons in the HLT).

Seems to me the correct strike water calculation is
Strike water = (Mash Thickness * Pounds of Grain / 4) + dead space under false bottom = (1.5 * 18 / 4) + 0.22 = 6.97 gallons.

Am I missing something obvious?

Thanks.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The amount of strike water determines how thick or thin the mash is. The liquid in the hoses is part of that equation so we account for it as while you mash you have liquid in your hoses.

If you don't account for it, mash thickness will be different between someone with identical setups with different length hoses. We don't want that. Just like the dead space under your false bottom.

Mash thickness is another variable that can be played with to change the outcome of your beer (step 4 of the brew day step by step explains how). It's not something that has a massive effect, but for sake of completeness we include it.

Has nothing to do with the HLT.

Kal

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KB




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 334
Location: Virginia

Working on: Next brew


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're collecting strike water into the MLT. Why care about any water in the hoses. We have 20 gallons ready in the HLT.

IMO, in our setup, the calculation should not take into consideration the amount of water in the hoses as the hose water amount is irrelevant.

We want a certain amount of strike water in the MLT. This amount is based on the (mash thickness times lbs of grains times) / 4 + dead space under false bottom (in our case 0.22).

The only reason to account for hose loss liquid is if we're (and we're not) putting the exact amount of liquid in the HLT to get ready for the MLT.

Am I missing something?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KB wrote:
We're collecting strike water into the MLT. Why care about any water in the hoses.

Because we want the mash thickness (quarts per pound of grain) to be a certain ratio.

Let's use an extreme example:

Say you want to soak your grain in 10 gallons of strike water to hit your liquor (water) to grist (grain) ratio. But your hoses hold almost all 10 gallons so you've now got next to no water in your mash. That's a really really thick mash. All that grain is sitting in next to no water.

Now say that you have that same 10 gallons of strike water but your hoses hold close to zero gallons. You've now got most of that 10 gallons in your mash. That's a thin mash. 10 times thinner than before.

So what's in the hoses matters.

Kal

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KB




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 334
Location: Virginia

Working on: Next brew


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal,
Unfortunately, you're missing the point. I'm not writing about mash thickness. Perhaps, I am not explaining correctly? Please consider the following.

We are NOT calculating the amount of strike water pre-MLT (in our case HLT), we are calculating the amount of strike water in the MLT for the mash.

If we are calculating the amount of string water pre-MLT, then the following calculation is valid.
Strike water = (Mash Thickness * Pounds of Grain / 4) + dead space under false bottom + liquid in hoses

However, if we are truly calculating the amount of strike water in the MLT, then the following calculation is valid.
Strike water = (Mash Thickness * Pounds of Grain / 4) + dead space under false bottom. We DON'T CARE ABOUT LIQUID IN THE HOSES are we are collecting the amount of required strike water in the MLT for mashing.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KB wrote:
However, if we are truly calculating the amount of strike water in the MLT, then the following calculation is valid.
Strike water = (Mash Thickness * Pounds of Grain / 4) + dead space under false bottom. We DON'T CARE ABOUT LIQUID IN THE HOSES are we are collecting the amount of required strike water in the MLT for mashing.

But that's not we care about, or not what I care about. That number isn't of any use to us. Because my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP guide is for the setup as documented here, and it's a recirculating setup that includes pumps/hoses/HERMS coil.

So for my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP guide we need to know how much water to transfer in the MLT which I call "strike water". Full stop. That's all we care about in my guide. That has to also include hoses/pumps/under the false bottom/HERMS coil and so forth.

So my "strike water" is the total amount I need to put in the MLT plus those extra amounts, because I want to hit the mash thickness numbers I care about.

If you prefer, you may call or think of the "strike water" in my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP guide "strike water + hose water + pump water + HERMS coil water + under the false bottom water".

I didn't as that's a lot to type over and over. Wink

Good luck!

Kal

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KB




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 334
Location: Virginia

Working on: Next brew


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"But that's not we care about, or not what I care about. That number isn't of any use to us. Because my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP guide is for the setup as documented here, and it's a recirculating setup that includes pumps/hoses/HERMS coil." This has no impact on the amount of liquid needed for the MLT.

If I need, for example, 5.5 gallons in the MLT, then I need 5.5 gallons in the MLT. Full stop.

I don’t care about the water in the hoses, pumps, etc.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KB wrote:
If I need, for example, 5.5 gallons in the MLT, then I need 5.5 gallons in the MLT. Full stop.

You have that 5.5 gallons in there, until the moment you turn on your pumps and now there's a bunch in the hoses, HERMS coil, and pumps too. All of a sudden you don't have 5.5 gallons in the MLT. You now only have 4.5 or 5.0 gallons in the MLT and the mash is more dense as there is less water. That's why I account for it in the equation you quoted in your first post. You don't have to if you don't want to.

KB wrote:
I don’t care about the water in the hoses, pumps, etc.

But your beer does, as the more you have in there, the more dense your mash is, which affects the outcome (albeit slightly). So you need to account for it if you want to be accurate. Again, don't feel you have to. The effect is not major.

I don't think we're understanding each other so maybe someone else can can chime in. Or you can just brew any way you like of course. It's all good. Good luck!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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KB




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 334
Location: Virginia

Working on: Next brew


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not trying to argue or "beat a dead horse". I'm just attempting to do things correctly/understand on my end of things.

Water we'll take from the HLT for strike water calculation is
water taken from HLT = (Mash Thickness * Pounds of Grain / 4) + dead space under false bottom + liquid in hoses.
From the example in the original post. (1.5 * 18 / 4) + 0.22 + 0.5 = 7.47 gallons (the original example rounded off to 7.5 gallons). We're taking 7.47 gallons of water from the HLT and transferring the water to the MLT.

However, amount of strike water needed in the MLT calculation is
strike water in MLT = (Mash Thickness * Pounds of Grain / 4) + dead space under false bottom
From the example in the original post. (1.5 * 18 / 4) + 0.22 = 6.97 gallons. We need 6.97 gallons of strike water in the MLT.

We've lost the liquid in the hose from the HLT to the MLT, hence the difference of 0.5 gallons between the HLT and the MLT.

Is the 0.5 gallons additional accounting for the liquid in the mash hoses and the Herms coil during mashing?
http://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/brew-day-step-by-step#STEP_5_Mash
If so, then (Mash Thickness * Pounds of Grain / 4) + dead space under false bottom + liquid in hoses and Herms coil is correct.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KB wrote:
Is the 0.5 gallons additional accounting for the liquid in the mash hoses and the Herms coil during mashing?
http://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/brew-day-step-by-step#STEP_5_Mash
If so, then (Mash Thickness * Pounds of Grain / 4) + dead space under false bottom + liquid in hoses and Herms coil is correct.

Yes. That is correct. Strike water is the water you need for mashing, and since mashing on this setup includes hoses/HERMS coil/pumps, it should be accounted for. This is what I believe I've been saying all along, maybe not clearly.

This is described in our step 4 of the guide: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/brew-day-step-by-step#STEP_4_Transfer_strike_water_to_Mash_Lauter_Tun

You may be thinking of "strike water" differently than what I describe in the guide. I think this is the case because you've a few times mentioned the term "strike water pre-MLT" which I don't understand. I've never heard that term. I Googled around a bit and checked a couple of the larger brewing forums and I find no instances of people talking about "pre-MLT". Example: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22pre-MLT%22+site%3Ahomebrewtalk.com

Whenever possible I try and stick to the understood meanings for terms. Nobody wants to read a guide that uses known terms but gives different meanings to them than the ones that are generally accepted. That would be confusing.

Brewers usually talk about the amount of "strike water" and "sparge water". Strike water is the amount of water used for soaking grain. Sparge water is the amount of water used to rinse the grain. How much you need depends on the system, the beer, and other factors.

So in my guide "strike water" is the amount of water we need to transfer to the MLT to be used for soaking the grain and because there's various plumbing and a false bottom involved, it's included in the calculation. If you had a picnic cooler batch sparge type setup you would not have that plumbing and false bottom involved so the equation would be simpler. THere would be no false bottom, no hoses, no pump, no HERMS coil. That's not the case for our design.

When following the guide I lay out, it's also important to follow it step by step and use the meanings for the terms as they're defined in the guide. If your definitions are different, then it won't work as it's not what the guide expects. Anyone can, of course, brew any way they prefer. There's certainly more than one way to use the setup as designed on this website. It's purposely flexible.

Cheers!

Kal

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