Return to TheElectricBrewery.com
  [ Shop ]   [ Building ]   [ Using ]   [ Recipes ]   [ Testimonials ]   [ Gallery ]   [ FAQ ]   [ About Us ]   [ Contact Us ]   [ Newsletter ]

Log inLog in   RegisterRegister   User Control PanelUser Control Panel   Private MessagesPrivate Messages   MembershipClub Memberships   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   Photo AlbumsPhoto Albums   Forum FAQForum FAQ


Contemplating A Few Changes to Control Panel Wiring

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Building Your Brewery
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
wcmathes




Joined: 05 May 2021
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 8:00 pm    Post subject: Contemplating A Few Changes to Control Panel Wiring Reply with quote


        Register to remove this ad. It's free!
Hi,

I am following Kal's control panel design but omitting a few devices that I personally do not need. I know his design/layout is tried and tested, so I figured I'd run a couple of ideas by you guys (please) in case I am overlooking a possible issue:

1) I prefer the idea of no PID switching flicker in the element LEDs so I plan to put the SSRs after the element relays/contactors and to connect the LEDs before the SSRs.

2) I mistakenly ordered 110V LED pilot lights for the elements, so I plan to power them across a hot wire and neutral.

Love this site/project.

Cheers,
William
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Contemplating A Few Changes to Control Panel Wiring Reply with quote

Hi and welcome to the forum William!

wcmathes wrote:
1) I prefer the idea of no PID switching flicker in the element LEDs so I plan to put the SSRs after the element relays/contactors and to connect the LEDs before the SSRs.

Can you describe what you mean by the "no PID switching flicker in the element LEDs"? There shouldn't be anything flickering on any lights or displays if you wire per my designs.

If you mean that the ELEMENT ON yellow lights glow dimly when no element is connected to the control panel and the ELEMENT SELECT switch is in one of the ON positions, that's normal. Covered here in the troubleshooting guide here:

https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/control-panel-troubleshooting#My_yellow_ELEMENT_ON_lights_glow_dimly_Is_that_normal

Now that said, for safety reasons you should not put the SSRs after the mechanical relays/contactors. Doing so gives a direct path of power to the elements and defeats the entire purpose of the mechanical relays/contactors in the first place. You might as well not even use them as there's now no point to them. Sort of like locking the barn door after the horse is already out. Wink

See the "HOW IT WORKS" section here for details: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=13

Quote:
2) I mistakenly ordered 110V LED pilot lights for the elements, so I plan to power them across a hot wire and neutral.

While that may work, I have to point out that 240V are used for the ELEMENT ON pilot lights for safety reasons to completely isolate the element outputs from everything else in the panel when the mechanical relays/contactors are off. I purposely did not want to pull power from somewhere other than the 2 HOT lines on the relay/contactor outputs as a "just in case" measure as anything else is not as safe (part of wiring or electrical design safety is to try and account for things we can't foresee, like the case when something fails or a wire becomes disconnected). Your plan creates a path from other parts of the panel (like the NEUTRAL bus) to the receptacle outlets so that safety is now compromised. You no longer have a true physical disconnect of the element receptacles when the relays/contactors are open as you do with my designs. It may be a low risk, but I feel it prudent to point that out.

Replacement LED lights are here if you decide to go with 240V lights: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/lights

Hope this helps. Cheers!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
wcmathes




Joined: 05 May 2021
Posts: 2



PostLink    Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 10:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Contemplating A Few Changes to Control Panel Wiring Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Hi and welcome to the forum William!

Can you describe what you mean by the "no PID switching flicker in the element LEDs"? There shouldn't be anything flickering on any lights or displays if you wire per my designs.

If you mean that the ELEMENT ON yellow lights glow dimly when no element is connected to the control panel and the ELEMENT SELECT switch is in one of the ON positions, that's normal. Covered here in the troubleshooting guide here:

https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/control-panel-troubleshooting#My_yellow_ELEMENT_ON_lights_glow_dimly_Is_that_normal

Now that said, for safety reasons you should not put the SSRs after the mechanical relays/contactors. Doing so gives a direct path of power to the elements and defeats the entire purpose of the mechanical relays/contactors in the first place. You might as well not even use them as there's now no point to them. Sort of like locking the barn door after the horse is already out. Wink

See the "HOW IT WORKS" section here for details: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=13



Thanks for the warm welcome and quick reply! I've never worked with PID controllers or SSRs before, so please bear with me. I thought that because the element LED is after the SSR in your design, it would "display" the SSR switching state, so if the PID output signal goes to 0 after reaching a set point, the SSR output is open and the LED would turn off, and then back on, and so on and so forth according to the PID control.

Please have a look at the attached diagram to see what I mean by SSR after contactor. The contactor still serves a purpose?

Quote:

While that may work, I have to point out that 240V are used for the ELEMENT ON pilot lights for safety reasons to completely isolate the element outputs from everything else in the panel when the mechanical relays/contactors are off. I purposely did not want to pull power from somewhere other than the 2 HOT lines on the relay/contactor outputs as a "just in case" measure as anything else is not as safe (part of wiring or electrical design safety is to try and account for things we can't foresee, like the case when something fails or a wire becomes disconnected). Your plan creates a path from other parts of the panel (like the NEUTRAL bus) to the receptacle outlets so that safety is now compromised. You no longer have a true physical disconnect of the element receptacles when the relays/contactors are open as you do with my designs. It may be a low risk, but I feel it prudent to point that out.

Replacement LED lights are here if you decide to go with 240V lights: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/collections/lights


Makes sense, I will go with the 240V light.



control panel 2.png
 Description:
 Filesize:  142.42 KB
 Viewed:  5123 Time(s)

control panel 2.png


Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 05, 2021 11:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Contemplating A Few Changes to Control Panel Wiring Reply with quote

wcmathes wrote:
I thought that because the element LED is after the SSR in your design, it would "display" the SSR switching state

No. There are multiple things that need to be on for the light to be on.

The ELEMENT ON light is only on when the element receptacle is live and receiving power.

The PID, SSR, and relay/contactor all have to be "on" for the ELEMENT ON light to be on. If the ELEMENT ON light is on, the heating element is receiving power. If the ELEMENT ON light isn't on, the element isn't receiving power.

wcmathes wrote:
Please have a look at the attached diagram to see what I mean by SSR after contactor. The contactor still serves a purpose?

With reduced safety as you now have an SSR with extra connections closer to the heating element receptacle which is a less safe design. The purpose of putting the physical relay/contactor as close to the output as possible is for safety. A physical disconnect (relay/contactor) right before the output is the safest method. Don't put SSRs or anything else solid state connected to other points after as you're negating much of the safety features. My 2 cents!

Cheers!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Building Your Brewery All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum



Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group