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Weird Issue with one of my Pots

 
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ukdaasfan




Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Posts: 15



PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:40 pm    Post subject: Weird Issue with one of my Pots Reply with quote


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So I have 2 100 litre pots both fitted with denford elements.

My control panel has 2 circuits one for the HTL and one for Boil.

When I put my Kettle on either circuit it will work fine. Up to a nice rolling boil.

When I put my HTL on either circuit it will run for a bit then trip the MCB.

I thought it was the element so got another 5500w 240v element.

And after replacing ti it still tripping out after a bout 5-10 minutes on both circuits.

Boiler is still fine.

Yes they seem to be wired up identically.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've tried both kettles on both circuits and the problem follows the HLT side so you know it's not the circuit breaker. It's something inside your panel that is causing the overload. That's the first place to look. Unfortunately it's difficult to be more specific than that as I don't know what you're doing exactly, what parts you're using, or how it's wired.

You've already swapped the element which would have been my first guess, but since that works it's not the element.

Good luck!

Kal

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ukdaasfan




Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Posts: 15



PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To clarify.

I have tried my Kettle on both the Kettle and HLT Circuits. Neither of the MCB's trips. I can bring it to the boil on both Circuits.

I attach my HLT to either of the Boil Circuit or the HTL Circuits it trips both circuits after about 5-10 minutes. It's never instant.

So that would suggest the HLT is the issue. As the board works fine with the Kettle which every plug I use.

To work backwards I have done the following.


1) Attached the HLT lead to an old Plastic HLT I had. It came up to near boil and didn't trip. That would seem to remove the cable and plug from the issue.
2) I replace the element in the kettle for a brand new one. It still tripped both the Boil Circuit MCB and the HLT Circuit MCB after 5-10 minutes.

The MCB is wired between the 32 AMP plus and the contancter.

I have put a circuit tester across the plug end and I reported 0 when I touched the Ground/Live and Ground/Neutral. I get about 10 ohms when Neutral and Live are touched which you would expect.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ukdaasfan wrote:

To clarify.
I have tried my Kettle on both the Kettle and HLT Circuits. Neither of the MCB's trips. I can bring it to the boil on both Circuits.
I attach my HLT to either of the Boil Circuit or the HTL Circuits it trips both circuits after about 5-10 minutes. It's never instant.

Yup. That's what I understood from your first post. It's not something upstream in one of the circuit (like a circuit breaker) since both circuits work fine with one kettle (BOIL) and neither circuit works fine with the other (HLT).

I think we need some pictures and circuit diagrams of what you're doing exactly. Especially since I believe you mention the breaker tripping is not the main panel breaker but some breaker you have in line. That would be easier to follow given that you're doing something completely custom here so it's difficult follow or know what's normal/what isn't. Your mention of taking ohm readings makes it sound like you may have a short so would need to see a circuit diagram of what you're doing / where you're measuring / etc to know if it's normal. (There are cases when shorts using a DC ohmmeter will be normal, like measuring the coil in the transformer or similar).

Kal

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ukdaasfan




Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Posts: 15



PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I can be fairly sure it is not anything in the control box.


I disconnected the lead from the back of the element on the HLT and connected it to the Kettle.

On the BOIL Controller I raised the water in the Kettle from 40-60, without the MCB tripping.

Then I moved the plug over from the BOIL to the HLT connection and raised it from 60-80. MCB didn't trip.

Logically this means that from the end of the cable is good. Which leaves the element, but it's new.

The alternative is that I have mounted the element in such a way that cause the overload.


It's a 5500w element on a 32AMP MCB so it shouldn't draw then 23-24 AMP.

So either a new and faulty element, or the way it is mounted.


Does that sound logical.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have a completely custom setup (not following any of the plans here). We need some pictures and circuit diagrams of what you're doing exactly before I can help any further.

You're explaining what you're doing, but nobody else other than yourself has the right context on how this system of yours is build with 2 power feeds, multiple breakers in spots I don't understand, and so forth.

Pictures and a circuit diagram would really help. Otherwise we're just guessing, and that isn't going to help you troubleshoot. Post some pictures.

Kal

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ukdaasfan




Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Posts: 15



PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, was in Problem solving mode.

The panel is wired using the 50A CONTROL PANEL BACK TO BACK (240V ONLY, FOR INT'L USE) Wiring diagrams. So the Circuit Diagrams are identical to those.
I bought the panel half complete with a copy of the plans.

The only deviation from the plans are:

A) Amp and Voltage meter, which at the moment see's a Faux Pas.

B) An addition of a 32AMP Fuse on the HOT feed between the Contacters and 32AMP Socket.

So it goes Contancater -> MCB -> Plug.

This is the MCB that is Tripping when I use this particular Pot.

The main outlet has an RCD and MCB these never go.

Pictures attached.


Last night I remove the cable from the rear of the element in the faulty pot and connected it to the working Pot. It worked find in both Sockets on the controller.

No MCB trip.

So logically it must be either:

a) A second faulty Element
b) something to do with how the element is connected to the pot.

I have noticed both the original element and the replacement (Both Denford 5500w) struggle to raise the temperature

The element in working Pot sends the temperature up by 0.1 of a degree every 10 seconds or so.On the failing pot the temperature rises much slower and after about 5-10 minutes the MCB trips.



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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some observations:

- Your circuit breakers should be 2-pole instead of single pole (for safety)
- Make sure to secure anything with live/exposed wiring to ensure you don't have something short out. On the right side of the top pick I see a screw clamp to tie two wires together (yellow & grey/blue) that appears to be loose.
- What sort of wire are you using? What type? What is it rated to in terms of voltage and current? What gauge? Is it primary wire? (That shouldn't be used). It may be an illusion but the high current wiring going to the heating element receptacle outlets doesn't seem any thicker than the other wiring used for switches.

ukdaasfan wrote:
So logically it must be either:

a) A second faulty Element
b) something to do with how the element is connected to the pot.

I have noticed both the original element and the replacement (Both Denford 5500w) struggle to raise the temperature

The element in working Pot sends the temperature up by 0.1 of a degree every 10 seconds or so.On the failing pot the temperature rises much slower and after about 5-10 minutes the MCB trips.

What voltage do you measure across each of the element when they're running? (careful when measuring this).

Post some pics of how the element is connected to the pot if you suspect that. Maybe something will stand out.

A 240V / 5500W element should raise the temperature of 1 gallon of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit in approximately 1.6 seconds. You can use that as a guideline. I don't know where you're located or if you have 120V available to you in addition to 240V, but if 120V is also available a wiring mistake could be sending 120V to the slow to rise element instead of 240V. At 120V the element will produce 1/4 the power so rise time will take x4 as long. Of course this has nothing to do with your breaker tripping issue.

Good luck!

Kal

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ukdaasfan




Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Posts: 15



PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey,

UK so 240v all the way Smile

All the cable from the mains to the single pole fuses is this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283895706593

The Red and blue wires for the controllers and lights is 27 Amp.

So todays testing.

1) Connected HLT to the HLT Plug with Voltmeter on. Reads 230-231v and does os until the the single pole fuse trips after 10 minutes.
2) Moved HLT yo the BOiL Plug with Voltmeter on. Reads 230-231v and does os until the the single pole fuse trips after 10 minutes.

3) Connected Kettle to the HLT Plug with Voltmeter on. Reads 230-231v and after 25 minutes fuse is still not tripped.
4) Connected Kettle to the HLT Plug with Voltmeter on. Reads 230-231v and after 25 minutes fuse is still not tripped.


So definitely the HLT.

Swapped out element in HLT and repeated the above with identical results.

Notes:

1) After the element trips the first time (8-10 minutes) if I reset the fuse and do it again it trips in a shorter time. This suggest the both fuses are overheating when connected to the HLT.


This is very odd.
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ukdaasfan




Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Posts: 15



PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey,

UK so 240v all the way Smile

All the cable from the mains to the single pole fuses is this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/283895706593

The Red and blue wires for the controllers and lights is 29 Amp.

Details below:

Tri-rated Cable

Product Overview
The name Tri-Rated comes from the fact that the cable meets the specification of three seperate standards. These being the British Standards Institute (BSi), the Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Appliance Wiring Materials (AWM), and the Canadian Standards Association (CSA) - hence the name tri-rated.

Tri-Rated cable (also known as BS6231 control panel wire or switchgear cable) is a fire retardant cable used in electrical cabinets, switch control, relay and instrumentation panels of power switchgear.

Triple certification of tr-rated cable enables their use in the North American markets as well as the Europe. These cables are referred to as H05V2-K and H07V2-K under their European harmonisation (HAR) designation code.

Tri-rated cable is designed and manufactured to be used in the wiring of electrical cabinets, switch control, relay and instrumentation panels of power switchgear. It can also be used for internal connectors in rectifier equipment, motor starters and controllers. Tri_rated cable is also designed for use inside small electrical devices. As a result, tri-rated cable has applications in most industries.



Construction
Conductor: Flexible plain annealed copper conductors

Sheath: Circular high temperature PVC outer sheath in a large range of colours

Characteristics
Voltage Rating: 600/1000 volts

Temperature Limits: -30°C to +105°C

Minimum Bending Radius: As per cable manufacturer datasheet

Should not be installed at temperatures below : 0°C to +40°C

So todays testing.

1) Connected HLT to the HLT Plug with Voltmeter on. Reads 230-231v and does os until the the single pole fuse trips after 10 minutes.
2) Moved HLT yo the BOiL Plug with Voltmeter on. Reads 230-231v and does os until the the single pole fuse trips after 10 minutes.

3) Connected Kettle to the HLT Plug with Voltmeter on. Reads 230-231v and after 25 minutes fuse is still not tripped.
4) Connected Kettle to the HLT Plug with Voltmeter on. Reads 230-231v and after 25 minutes fuse is still not tripped.


So definitely the HLT.

Swapped out element in HLT and repeated the above with identical results.

Notes:

1) After the element trips the first time (8-10 minutes) if I reset the fuse and do it again it trips in a shorter time. This suggest the both fuses are overheating when connected to the HLT.


This is very odd.
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ukdaasfan wrote:
The Red and blue wires for the controllers and lights is 27 Amp.

ukdaasfan wrote:
The Red and blue wires for the controllers and lights is 29 Amp.


What's the voltage? Just want to make sure you're not using 60V primary (automotive) wiring as it looks a lot like it.

I tried to find anything on these denford heating elements you mention you're using but can't find anything. Maybe you mean dernord?

Post some pics of how the element is connected to the pot if you suspect that. Maybe something will stand out.

Kal

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ukdaasfan




Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Posts: 15



PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I updated the Amp after checking the order Smile

Voltage rating (According to Cable Cuts the Supplier) is Characteristics
Voltage Rating: 600/1000 volts.

Cheers

Ben
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JSB




Joined: 17 Oct 2016
Posts: 125
Location: NE Ohio


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok...

The cable is 4 mm^2, according to this site:

https://www.multicable.com/resources/reference-data/cross-reference-awg-to-mm2/

that is equivalent to 12 AWG wire... and that will NOT work for a 50A controller... not even close!
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always important to use wire rated for the voltage and current they have to carry. For more info and what to use, see our control panel build guides:

https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/building-your-brewery

We explain what size of wire to use where. Our 50A designs use 4 different wire sizes.

Kal

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ukdaasfan




Joined: 16 Nov 2020
Posts: 15



PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JSB wrote:
Ok...

The cable is 4 mm^2, according to this site:

https://www.multicable.com/resources/reference-data/cross-reference-awg-to-mm2/

that is equivalent to 12 AWG wire... and that will NOT work for a 50A controller... not even close!


Luckily the circuit is only wired for 40amp as that is currently the maximum the council will allow in domestic without inspection. The Cable is high enough for the draw, as I only have 5500KW elements and wired so only one can be active at a time. I have had my certificate from the certification board today (All wiring circuits have to be certified in the UK). The circuit connection to the controller plug also has a 40amp MCB and a RCD and another 40AMP fuse at the split off point from the 100 amp inbound feed to my house. So I think we're safe Smile

In other new we resolved the issue. It was a faulty fuse on the controller. We used a clamp meter to measure the current and the fuse was failing below the 32amps it was rated at. The HLT pot was drawing slight more than the Kettle so that was just enough after about 10 minutes to tip it over.


The electrician who wired the mains for me kindly came back and did some testing (For a couple of Home Brews...), he then replaced the fuse and issue went away. We returned the fuse to the supplier with his test report and they called me back today confirmed there was a factory fault and apologise.

Did first full brew on Sunday and it worked like a dream.

Thanks for all the help!
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to hear you figured out the issue! Happy brewing!

Kal

_________________
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