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Auto Tuning Boil Kettle PID – Observations

 
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mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:45 pm    Post subject: Auto Tuning Boil Kettle PID – Observations Reply with quote


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I have a back-to-back system in which I heat strike water in the Boil Kettle while the Hot Liquor Tank is being heated to mash temp. I tried auto tuning my Boil Kettle PID to keep the strike water at a set temp without overshooting. The auto-tune worked well from that standpoint.

But auto-tuning the Boil Kettle PID resulted in unexpected heating element behavior during the boil. Normally, I manually control my element during boiling (65% power duty). Prior to auto-tuning, the Boil Kettle PID would control the element firing to maintain a continuous, smooth boil at 65% duty. However, once auto-tuned, the PID actually turned off the heating element during the boil to maintain 65% duty which resulted in a boil that was unsettling and discontinuous. I returned the Boil Kettle PID settings to factory default. I’d rather have a smooth continuous boil than worry about overshooting strike water temp by a degree or two. Has anyone experienced the same behavior?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Auto-tuning sets the P / I / D values of the PID. Normally these values are only used when in automatic (temperature based) control. That said, I just tried a test by setting values to some crazy large numbers and it did cause some odd behavior.

99% of the time the P / I / D values I recommend here will work for you: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-setup
(No auto-tune required). I would just use those.

Kal

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mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Kal, the values you posted have worked for me in the past - I'll stick with your recommendations. Just goes to show issues with unintended consequences...
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mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, I think you posted another response, that I received in my email but don't see it here. Anyway, something else also happened that was strange - the boil kettle had 8 gallons of wort in it, when I turned the element on, the element started vibrating such that I could see ripples on the surface of the wort and feel the kettle vibrating (never experienced that before). Once the boil came up, it stopped and I attempted to go into manual mode , but the controller would not let me use manual mode. I then went into the settings and found that the PID A-M setting was set to "2" manual suppression - Apparently, auto-tune also changes the A-M from "0" to "2" as part of the auto-tune function. Also, auto tune changed my "t" setting from 2 to 20. I changed the A-M setting to "0" and was then allowed to set my duty at 65%. I didn't change the "t" setting though. As expected, the auto tune changed my PID settings to large numbers. I have since went back to your recommended settings and everything seems normal, but won't know until my next brew day.
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjo2125 wrote:
Kal, I think you posted another response, that I received in my email but don't see it here.

Correct. I had posted, but then decided to try my suggestions of using some crazy values and noticed that the PID behaved 'oddly' so I changed my answer.

Kal

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mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, to confirm - the default factory Auberins SYL-2352 PID settings are: I=1000, P=500, d=120 correct? I changed the auto tune settings to these.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjo2125 wrote:
Kal, to confirm - the default factory SYL-2352 PID settings are: I=1000, P=500, d=120 correct? I changed the auto tune settings to these.

Correct.

Kal

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mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ran a water test between the HERMS Hot Liquor Tank and the Mash Tun. Filled the HLT with 12 gallons of water and the mash tun with 4 gallons of water. Wanted to see how long it would take to heat up mash tun water from 68°F to 154°F with default factory PID settings vs. auto-tune settings on the HLT controller. First heated up the HLT water to 154°F, then circulated the mash tun water (68°F) through the HERMS coil. With auto-tuned PID settings it took 27 minutes to heat up the mash tun water. With factory default settings, it took 17 minutes. For my set-up, the default settings seemed to work better.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The settings are more about ensuring that it doesn't over/under shoot. Sort of like how aggressively a driver mashes the brake and gas pedals. Depends on the accuracy you're going for.

What were the auto-tuned settings the PID came up with?

Did you try my recommended settings from the setup guide? Those tend to work well for most.

Kal

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mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, yep. The PID came with the default settings mentioned above. The other recommended settings in your guide worked very well and I use them - thanks. My objective with the HLT settings is to help reach/control mash temps within a reasonable amount of time. My HLT process temp may overshoot the HLT setpoint by a degree or two (then settle down to the setpoint), but the mash temp reaches its setpoint in a reasonable amount of time and stays there. I assume it's okay to live with a temporary HLT overshoot of a degree or two initially?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood.

You said "With auto-tuned PID settings it took 27 minutes to heat up the mash tun water. With factory default settings, it took 17 minutes." The auto-tuned PID settings are the values that the PID ends up using after an auto-tune. They will be different on every setup after doing an auto-tune. I was curious what your PID came up with.

They are not my recommended values from the setup guide which are: I=350, P=40, d=2

The factory default settings are also different. They are: I=1000, P=500, d=120

Quote:
My HLT process temp may overshoot the HLT setpoint by a degree or two (then settle down to the setpoint), but the mash temp reaches its setpoint in a reasonable amount of time and stays there. I assume it's okay to live with a temporary HLT overshoot of a degree or two initially?

Sure. Sounds fine to me. It's the mash we care about.

Kal

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mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh I see - I used I=1000, P=500, d=120. I'll try the three values I=350, P=40, d=2 and see how the mash temp responds. I believe I had your values in the first of three tests and the results were similar (17 minutes) but I'll check again.
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mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal, I tried the values I=350, P=40, d=2. The time to change the water temp from 68°F to 154°F was about the same (17 mins) as with using the default settings except that with your settings, the HLT process temp never over shot the set point. I also adjusted (lowered) the HLT temp probe offset by 1.5°F. So the raw real HLT outlet temp is a little higher than what is reported to the controller in order to compensate for the temp loss in the tubing from the HLT HERMS to the mash tun. The mash outlet temp and HLT reported temp both held at 154°F without over shooting. This combined with your PID settings seems to work best.
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kal
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Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great! Glad to hear it.

Kal

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KB




Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 334
Location: Virginia

Working on: Next brew


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I manually control my element during boiling (65% power duty)"

Not trying to hijack the thread, but does 65% work out OK? I ask as I run 75%. Perhaps, I should consider 65%?
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mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

65% works well for me. It results in a 1.5 gallon/hr boil off on my system (15 gallon boil kettle). My element is 4500 watts. Smooth continuous rolling boil - any more than 65% and the wort actually starts to rock back and forth in the kettle. That's just how my system responds - your could be different.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup! Boil power (percentage) depends entirely on your batch size and your element size, and what your expectations are. It's not one size fits all. If it was, there wouldn't be an adjustment setting. I brew 10 gallon batches (packaged) and usually start with just under 14 gallons pre-boil and set my PID to 85%, and use a 5500W element. I like a nice vigorous boil as I find it makes the best beer (best extraction, long term stability, best clarity, etc).

Cheers!

Kal

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We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For sure - my batches are smaller typically 6 gallon post boil.
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mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One correction to my post. My heating element is rated at 5500 watts. That makes more sense when comparing % duties and boil off in this thread.
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