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Mash tun pot inside another pot? - Water jacketed MLT

 
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:42 pm    Post subject: Mash tun pot inside another pot? - Water jacketed MLT Reply with quote


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Hello all,

I'm just wondering if anyone has seen or made what would essentially be a jacketed MLT? Like a steam jacket on a commercial mash tun.

What got me thinking about this is I'm currently brewing a French Saison and 30% of the recipe is rye and wheat. As tends to happen with these thicker grains, and because I did a protein rest at 50'C (which increases the viscosity of the mash), I've experienced a stuck mash several times today. I've "fixed" the problem by adding rice hulls (a half pound at a time) and have added a total of 2 lbs. This trouble-shooting has caused my "30 minute" protein rest phase to last more than 2 hours. From a quality/ repeatability/ length of brewday standpoint this makes me craaaazy. I expect this beer may be considerably dryer and much more tannic than I intended. I did have a mill issue and expected to have some stuck mash issues as it was. My mill gap is correct, but one of my mill rollers got jammed up (not the drive roller), and about 1/3 of my grist got shredded to flour before I noticed and unstuck the roller.

At baseline for me (20 gal Blichmann's - and pretty much a Kal clone), for all control panel temp increases the temperature rate of rise (ROR) in the MLT is roughly double the ROR in the HLT. Often, raising step-mash temp to knockout temp takes 30-45 min, where the HLT only takes 15 or so minutes.

I had the thought that it would be nice to be able to increase the temperature of the mash 1.) Faster and 2.) Not solely dependent on through-grain-flow as is typical in RIMS and HERMS systems. If I could raise the temp of the mash independent of flow rate, then viscosity would decrease faster, enzymes would work to break down sugars and proteins faster, and brew day length could be reduced.

I'm considering buying a 30 gallon kettle that I could stick my MLT inside of. Water would still be heated in the HLT. Hot water would be pumped out of both the bottom of the HLT and the 30 gal pot via a Tee, and then be pumped back into the HLT and the 30 gal also through a Tee. The 30 gal pot would work as a water bath for my existing 20 gal pot.

I have a few ideas on how to support the 20 gal, how to still use the 20 gal site glass, and I would still generally recirculate this HERMS system as designed. I'd just have a better/ alternate way to heat the MLT.

Has anyone tried or seen this?

Thanks,
McGruber
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Odd! I'm confused why you get a stuck mash with only 30% huskless grain. I've done up to 60% wheat (huskless) and had zero stuck flow or stuck sparges with my 20 gal Blichmann false bottom and the other equipment I use.

You say your mill gap is "correct" but what mill gap is that?
Do you run your pumps 100% open? What pumps are they?

Kal

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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, like I said, I know I floured a whole bunch of the grist. On the first pass I may have completely shredded up to half of the husks. Then I ran it through the mill again to crush the relatively high percentage of un-crushed malt that made it through the mill after I *mostly* fixed the issue. The resulting grist had a lot less mostly-intact husk than I've maybe ever had. I knew I'd have issues vorlaufing because average resulting grist size was so small. I do usually have to add a little bit of rice hull to anything over 40% wheat myself.

I have a Monster Mill 3-roller. I milled the barley at 0.055" and the wheat/ rye at 0.035". 0.055 usually works fine, but it missed some grain this time so I passed it all through again at 0.050. But even then the roller was still not rolling correctly. I pulled my mill apart after milling and found a bunch of grain compacted in the space where the roller spins within the gap adjustment dial. That was reducing spin and caused a bunch of shredding.

Yeah, I run pumps and valves 100% open (eventually). My procedure is I take about 5 min to mash in, I stir the mash gently with my paddle for 5 min, and then I let it settle 5 min. Then I turn on the pump and open the valve over about 2 min to 100%. I have SS March pumps. I haven't had a stuck mash in forever using this procedure.

Kal, what kind of rate of rise do you get? Same as me at about twice as long for grain vs HLT? Have you seen anyone try a "jacketed" type MLT as I described?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

McGruber wrote:
Well, like I said, I know I floured a whole bunch of the grist. On the first pass I may have completely shredded up to half of the husks.

Ok, maybe I'm not understanding then but it sounds like this was a mistake, something you don't normally do and don't want to do in the future. Why change the setup with a bunch of new hardware because of one mistake? Sorry, but I'm clearly not understanding something but it sounds like your flow may be low which in turn is causing slow ramp times. I’d probably look there first before changing things up.

What mill gap setting do you use? Edit: I see you mention 0.035 to 0.055”. 0.035” sounds tight. Maybe it’s tighter than you think? I don’t adjust per grain type. Got any pics of your properly crushed grain?

Quote:
Kal, what kind of rate of rise do you get? Same as me at about twice as long for grain vs HLT?

Depends on the amount of grain. The more grain you have, the more mass you have, the longer it takes. So every beer is different, I have videos and talk about it for the ~5% ABV beer in my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP article but that would only be for that one beer for the batch size in question.

Quote:
Have you seen anyone try a "jacketed" type MLT as I described?

Not in homebrewer sized setups. In giant 5-10+ bbl setups, yes.

Cheers!

Kal

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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Ok, maybe I'm not understanding then but it sounds like this was a mistake, something you don't normally do and don't want to do in the future. Why change the setup with a bunch of new hardware because of one mistake?Kal

My question is related more toward the fact that I think it would be easier to ramp temperature in general, with a system that employs both vorlaufing and external heating. In this one recent instance I was frustrated that I couldn't ramp temp up hardly at all because of the overly fine makeup of the grist. If I could ramp temp in every batch twice as fast, I think I would have better control over the process and finished product. This is true for regular, mistake-free batches, and also in the rare situation that my mill screws up my day and I run out of rice hulls. Being solely dependent on the filterablilty of the grain bed to raise temp, when it turns into concrete every 5 minutes is very frustrating.

kal wrote:
What mill gap setting do you use? Edit: I see you mention 0.035 to 0.055”. 0.035” sounds tight. Maybe it’s tighter than you think? I don’t adjust per grain type. Got any pics of your properly crushed grain?Kal

0.035 is tight and I only use it for wheat, rye, and grains that seem small compared to the regular barley I'm using. Since those grains are huskless anyway, I mill them more fine to get better brewhouse yield. I noticed that when I mill wheat at .050 or .055 that a lot of those smaller grains do not get adequately crushed and my expected extract and real extract do not jive. The mill adjustment only takes me less than one minute.

kal wrote:
Quote:
Have you seen anyone try a "jacketed" type MLT as I described?

Not in homebrewer sized setups. In giant 5-10+ bbl setups, yes. Kal

Right. I'm going to chew on this a little longer and will update if I do anything crazy.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right! Now I get it. I still think there's some underlying issue at play here that isn't common as it's not an issue others are experiencing or complaining about. At least I'm not.

Take a look here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step?page=7

I go from 149 mash to 168F mashout. On this 10 gallon batch of 5% ABV beer the HLT takes less than 13 mins to go from 149F to 168F. At that time the MLT has already gone from 149F to 162F and only takes a few minutes more to also reach 168F like the HLT. The only time I've ever thought "wow this mash is taking a long time to also get up to HLT temp" is when I brew something massive (11-12% ABV). Even then it's just a reminder of how much grain I have and doesn't take what I'd consider overly long, just longer than when brewing something ~ 5% ABV.


Kal

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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. I know what you're saying. I don't usually have a problem with my mash/ sparge now, but I did in the beginning with this system. I had to dial in my mill and procedure. I'm almost always happy with my grist composition now, and I've even checked it with shaker plates to measure percentages of different sizes and it's in spec.

I do think that somehow our experiences are slightly different. On my system I have about a 1.0'C offset between HLT and MLT temp. Also, let's say that an average 6.0% ABV beer recipe will take about 15-20 minutes to heat from roughly 150'f to 176'F. However, the MLT will take 30-45 min. This is where my "double the time" statement comes from. I usually do two or three stage mash temp raises (counting raising to mash-out), and pretty consistently the MLT takes roughly twice as long to hit temp as the HLT. Of course (as you mentioned) this is grain bill/mass dependent, but it's also filterability dependent.

It has been a long time since my grist was this fine. It just got me thinking that the only way to decrease viscosity and increase temp into the range that the wort is getting out of the gelatinization/ protein rest phase, is to increase the temp. However, I couldn't increase the temp without flowing hotter wort through it, but I couldn't flow wort through it. Catch 22. But if it was in a water bath, I could stir it with my mash paddle and water bath it until the glucans reduced and filterability increased. Also as you mentioned, this is like a commercial jacketed mash or lauter tun.

I know I'm crazy, but trying to get the MLT temp to raise over 2.5 hours instead of 30 minutes hurt my soul. If I could shave at least 1.5 hours off every brew day (and save myself if the mash gets stuck) because I bought another pot, then I'm willing to consider it.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

McGruber wrote:
I do think that somehow our experiences are slightly different.

Something is definitely different about our setups/process. On my setup my MLT doesn't lag that far behind so something has to be different.

Kal

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