Return to TheElectricBrewery.com
  [ Shop ]   [ Building ]   [ Using ]   [ Recipes ]   [ Testimonials ]   [ Gallery ]   [ FAQ ]   [ About Us ]   [ Contact Us ]   [ Newsletter ]

Log inLog in   RegisterRegister   User Control PanelUser Control Panel   Private MessagesPrivate Messages   MembershipClub Memberships   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   Photo AlbumsPhoto Albums   Forum FAQForum FAQ


Hello and Fermenter Heating Question!

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Yeast & Fermentation
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
michaelgiesbrecht




Joined: 31 Jul 2019
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:10 pm    Post subject: Hello and Fermenter Heating Question! Reply with quote


        Register to remove this ad. It's free!
Hello all, new member, long time lurker and electric brewery user here. I'm working on expanding my fermentation capacity and got some 50L sanke kegs which I plan to convert over. I've been looking into methods of keeping the wort warm in the winter (will be in my garage which kept just above freezing). I'm planning to flip the kegs upside down and cut a hole in the bottom (which will become the top of the fermenter) for a corny style lid, then install a cooling coil and some TC hardware through the top and sides for thermowell, ball lock connections, etc. The former sanke coupler end becomes a bottom drain that can be closed off with 2" TC hardware.

This comes to my crazy idea - has anyone considered (or attempted) using an electric element similar to what we use in the BK/HLT inside a fermenter?? Was thinking that I could stick one up through the bottom using a 2"TC to heating element fitting; and control with an SSR/STC-1000.

Am I insane?
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum!

I think the major concern would be keeping it perfectly clean/sanitary. Normally you want to keep the insides of your fermenter(s) as 'simple' as possible to avoid any place that nasties can hide. Same is true for any cold side brewery equipment.

This is not an issue on the hot side as everything is boiled anyway.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
michaelgiesbrecht




Joined: 31 Jul 2019
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal! I think I have a solid plan for cleaning/sanitizing; I'm going to go ahead and give it a try and I'll report back whether it was a bad idea or not.

Cheers!
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Off the top of my head, I think one issue may be the non-gentle manner that heat is presented. The heating element may get very hot before the temperature probe shuts it down, causing hot spots around it that could kill the yeast or cause excessive fermentation (before the yeast gets hot enough). You'd have to make sure to issue heat slowly and gently I would think, like using a very low power heating element and/or running at much reduced voltage.

My 2 cents.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
michaelgiesbrecht




Joined: 31 Jul 2019
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right down my line of thinking - going to look for the smallest 240V all stainless element I can find, run it on 120V; and use a slow PWM cycle on the SSR to keep the 'on' time low which should keep the heating pretty gentle.
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
michaelgiesbrecht




Joined: 31 Jul 2019
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:38 pm    Post subject: Great success! Reply with quote

Well, I've got about 20 batches through with this system now and so far it is working fantastic. I've got two fermenters built and in operation, with a third one in progress usjng this method. I found stainless 500w/240v heating elements that I'm running on 120v, with PWM set at roughly 65% duty cycle. It was able to hold fermentation temp in my unheated garage all winter without issue!

Using 13 gallon sanke kegs as the base, the heater is mounted to a 2" TC fitting that I put through the coupler Port (which is on the bottom in use). I cut an oval hole in the 'bottom' (which becomes the top) for a corny lid, and mounted a ball lock gas post and weldless 1.5" TC fitting, thermowell, and a dip tube. Total cost is roughly $400CAD per fermenter, with heating and a cooling coil for temp control, and pressure capable (I've been using the last 5 or so gravity points to carbonate the beer, roughly 30psi at fermentation temp). I then cold crash (under pressure so no oxygen pulled in), and keg directly off the fermenter. Beer goes into the keezer cold and carbonated. I've tapped beers within hours of kegging, and they've been fantastic! I'm so happy with this setup I sold all of my SS brewtech brew buckets!
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to hear it's working well for you!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Walts Malt




Joined: 27 Sep 2013
Posts: 119
Location: Farmington, MN

Drinking: Two Hearted Clone

Working on: Planning my Fall Brewing Schedule


PostLink    Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have any pictures of your fermenters? I would be curious to see how you accomplished all of what you described above. I ferment in a Sanke Keg, but it resides inside a chest freezer that I use to regulate the temperatures. It has the top of a sanke keg welded on the top, which allows for access to the whole keg and allows for closed transfer to kegs.
Back to top
michaelgiesbrecht




Joined: 31 Jul 2019
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Walts Malt wrote:
Do you have any pictures of your fermenters? I would be curious to see how you accomplished all of what you described above. I ferment in a Sanke Keg, but it resides inside a chest freezer that I use to regulate the temperatures. It has the top of a sanke keg welded on the top, which allows for access to the whole keg and allows for closed transfer to kegs.


For sure, I'll take some photos of the setup and post them.
Back to top
225




Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 103
Location: Asheville, NC.


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michaelgiesbrecht wrote:
For sure, I'll take some photos of the setup and post them.


I'm curious to see this as well. I have a TIG welder and would love to do something like this.
Back to top
michaelgiesbrecht




Joined: 31 Jul 2019
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here you go!

I cut the oval hole using a jig saw and carbide tipped blades (24 tpi). Round holes are drilled with step bits (smaller holes for the cooling coil, dip tube, thermowell, and gas post) and a carbide tipped hole saw for the TC port on the top. Most of the components are sourced from ontariobeerkegs.com, with the exception of the heating element and gas post which I get from Amazon.

Currently everything is weldless, if I had access to sanitary welding equipment I would weld TC flanges on it instead of the weldless fittings, but otherwise I'm super happy with them!

The cooling coil is a bit of a bear to get in there, pretty much have to just work in back and forth on coil at a time,

Finished empty fermenter:



Cooling coil mounted inside:



Fermenter from the back side (and full fermenter in the background):



Heating element setup:



Heating element installed:



Build in progress:

Back to top
225




Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 103
Location: Asheville, NC.


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea.

What cooling coil did you use?

I saw a guy on another forum that used a 6" tri-clamp fitting on the top. That would make it easy to get inside to smooth out welds with my air belt sander.

I've looked at adding a 60 degree conical like this, which is 9" in dia. Add another fitting half way up the cone, and I would have a 1/2 BBL unitank. And weld on legs. I think I would still come out way ahead than buying a 1/2 BBL unitank. A SS Brewtech Unitank has 5 1.5" tri-clamp openings, 1 - 6" opening and 1-3" opening.

And a SS Brewtech 1/2 BBL Unitank costs $1500.

A weld on 1.5" fitting costs $3.95: https://www.glaciertanks.com/tri-clamp-fittings-28.6mm-ferrules-14amp-g150.html
6" $52.00: https://www.glaciertanks.com/tri-clamp-fittings-tank-weld-ferrules-14mpw-g600.html
Cone $140: https://www.glaciertanks.com/tri-clamp-fittings-tank-weld-ferrules-14mpw-g600.html


Back to top
michaelgiesbrecht




Joined: 31 Jul 2019
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

225 wrote:
I like the idea.

What cooling coil did you use?

I saw a guy on another forum that used a 6" tri-clamp fitting on the top. That would make it easy to get inside to smooth out welds with my air belt sander.

I've looked at adding a 60 degree conical like this, which is 9" in dia. Add another fitting half way up the cone, and I would have a 1/2 BBL unitank. And weld on legs. I think I would still come out way ahead than buying a 1/2 BBL unitank. A SS Brewtech Unitank has 5 1.5" tri-clamp openings, 1 - 6" opening and 1-3" opening.

And a SS Brewtech 1/2 BBL Unitank costs $1500.

A weld on 1.5" fitting costs $3.95: https://www.glaciertanks.com/tri-clamp-fittings-28.6mm-ferrules-14amp-g150.html
6" $52.00: https://www.glaciertanks.com/tri-clamp-fittings-tank-weld-ferrules-14mpw-g600.html
Cone $140: https://www.glaciertanks.com/tri-clamp-fittings-tank-weld-ferrules-14mpw-g600.html




Cooling coil is the SS brewtech FTSS coil, grabbed it from Ontariobeerkegs.com
https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/Ss_Brewtech_Chr_Ferm_FTSs_Immersion_Chiller_Coil_p/ftss-chiller-coil.htm?Click=3715

Like I said, it just barely fits through the corny lid hole (and I mean it). It takes a fair bit of work to get it in there, I'm not 100% sure I could get it back out. The first one was a shot in the dark to see if I could make it work (I figured worse case I would use it on one of the brewbuckets I had).

I went the direction I did because I don't have access to sanitary welding equipment so everything had to be weldless. If I did, I certainly would have gone with a 6" TC on the top as you suggest; and was at one point seriously looking at those cones and trying to find someone that would weld them up for beer in order to turn the kegs into conicals. I gave up after about 3 months and just went with weldless. I may upgrade them someday, but this is working so well for me now I'm not sure if I need to. I use dry yeast 95% of the time; so yeast harvesting has little interest for me, and besides if I wanted to maintain yeast cultures I would just build up oversize starters and save a portion rather than try to save yeast that has gone through a beer. I have also racked new beer right on top of the yeast cake from the last one (since I can do everything without opening the lid) and that also worked very well, I'm considering working that into my normal process (start with lighter non dry hopped beer and work up to either dark beer or hop bombs, reusing the yeast cake as I go). I find with a solid cold crash and hold at near freezing for a few days (usually 5-7; I'm not in a rush) clears the beers up nicely, and worse case I would rack to an empty fermenter (use it as a bright) with a valve on the bottom instead of heater and add gelatin. I've never had any kind of off flavors from sitting on the yeast too long (max is about 6 weeks, 4 of them near freezing for a lager). The only thing I will probably change in the not to distant future is upgrade the dip tube part from the weldless ball valves (same ones SS Brewtech uses on the brewbuckets) to a weldless TC flange and rotating TC dip tube.
Back to top
chastuck




Joined: 06 Oct 2013
Posts: 193
Location: Beckenham, Kent, UK

Drinking: Bitter

Working on: IPA


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks great. Where did you get the heating element from and the stainless steel housing please.
_________________
"And the only time I feel alright is when I'm into drinking. It sort of eases the pain of it and levels out my thinking". Lyric extract "From Clare To Here" by Ralph McTell.
Back to top
View user's photo album (1 photos)
michaelgiesbrecht




Joined: 31 Jul 2019
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chastuck wrote:
Looks great. Where did you get the heating element from and the stainless steel housing please.


Heating elements are from Amazon (these ones are often out of stock, you can easily use a larger output version with a lower PWM setting; or a smaller output one at a higher PWM setting; I use roughly 80W of its maximum 500W output by running on 120V @ 65% duty cycle):

https://www.amazon.ca/DERNORD-Immersion-Cartridge-Heating-Replacement/dp/B074KB8SP1/ref=as_li_ss_tl?dchild=1&keywords=Dernord+Cartridge+Heater+120V+500W+Hot+Rod+Heating+Element+1/2+Inch+Thread&qid=1586180061&sr=8-1&th=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelecbrew-20&linkId=e12907199266486188c4ff53a59803bb&language=en_CA

The 2" TC to 1/2" NPT adapter I got from Ontariobeerkegs.com:

https://www.ontariobeerkegs.com/S_S_Tri_Clover_Fitting_2_TC_x_1_2_FNPT_p/ss-2tc-x-1-2-fnpt.htm?Click=3715

(Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!)
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the same heating element at Amazon.com:

https://www.amazon.com/DERNORD-Immersion-Cartridge-Heating-Replacement/dp/B074K98XR7/ref=as_li_ss_tl?dchild=1&keywords=Dernord+Cartridge+Heater+120V+500W+Hot+Rod+Heating+Element+1/2+Inch+Thread&qid=1586180061&sr=8-1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=188a46b885d6875fd653626c05e88587&language=en_US

(Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!)

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Walts Malt




Joined: 27 Sep 2013
Posts: 119
Location: Farmington, MN

Drinking: Two Hearted Clone

Working on: Planning my Fall Brewing Schedule


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This really looks like a fun and interesting project. The chest freezer approach I have been using has been dialed in and I’m very happy with the results. But I’m always wondering if/when the chest freezer dies, would I just buy another chest freezer.

Any downsides to the the approach you’ve taken? Cleaning? Transferring?

What are you using the cool to cool the beer? Are you using just ice water, or a glycol chiller?
Back to top
michaelgiesbrecht




Joined: 31 Jul 2019
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Here's the same heating element at Amazon.com:

https://www.amazon.com/DERNORD-Immersion-Cartridge-Heating-Replacement/dp/B074K98XR7/ref=as_li_ss_tl?dchild=1&keywords=Dernord+Cartridge+Heater+120V+500W+Hot+Rod+Heating+Element+1/2+Inch+Thread&qid=1586180061&sr=8-1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=188a46b885d6875fd653626c05e88587&language=en_US

(Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!)

Kal


Thanks Kal, that's actually linked to the 120V version, which will actually put out 500W when run at 120V. I actually use the 240V version and run it at lower voltage; so this would be the link:

https://www.amazon.com/DERNORD-Immersion-Cartridge-Heating-Replacement/dp/B074KB8SP1/ref=as_li_ss_tl?dchild=1&keywords=Dernord+Cartridge+Heater+120V+500W+Hot+Rod+Heating+Element+1/2+Inch+Thread&qid=1586180061&sr=8-1&th=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=695cacb66eda1c5341d43d3a8066e398&language=en_US

Walts Malt wrote:


This really looks like a fun and interesting project. The chest freezer approach I have been using has been dialed in and I’m very happy with the results. But I’m always wondering if/when the chest freezer dies, would I just buy another chest freezer.

Any downsides to the the approach you’ve taken? Cleaning? Transferring?

What are you using the cool to cool the beer? Are you using just ice water, or a glycol chiller?



Cleaning is easy, I turn the fermenter on its side to remove the heating element, then dump the trub into a bucket, then a quick scrub around the krausen line with a carboy brush to loosen anything solid up, followed by rinse out with a hose/spray wand to get most of the crud out (with the bucket underneath). Then I have a CIP ball mounted to a corny lid and pop that in the top; bucket of cleaner and a 1/4HP sump underneath. Run it for 20 minutes; then switch out the cleaner for rinse water (usually twice). While that's running I disassemble the heater and clean it, and clean the rest of the fittings. I usually do the transfer to kegs and cleanup on the fermenter while I'm heating water and mashing my next batch. While chilling the next beer I CIP with santizer, then assemble the heating element at the bottom, put the fermenter back in place, and reassemble the fittings on the top. New beer goes right into the freshly cleaned and sanitized fermenter. Couple things I learned:

1. Don't try to remove the heating element with trub on top of it while the fermenter is sitting upright - trub EVERYWHERE.
2. Cleaning without CIP sucks.
3. #1 again. Seriously.

Transferring is super easy; I put CO2 to the gas coupler, move the spunding valve to the pre-purged kegs (purged by filling to the brim with sanitizer and pushing out with CO2; hook up a hose to the dip tube, and let it rip. If you have spare empty kegs sitting around you can use the CO2 from fermentation to push the sanitizer through them; purging while you ferment; and pre-balancing the kegs to your fermenter pressure (this works really well and saves a ton of CO2).

Cooling is handled by a DIY 10k BTU glycol chiller made from a window air conditioner. There is a small pond pump for each fermenter in the resevoir. I even tried chilling in the fermenter on a batch - transferred direct from the kettle right after flame out into the fermenter; and chilled it down with the glycol in about 25 minutes - leaves alot of crud in the fermenter; so I don't like to do it this way; but in a pinch I can.
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

michaelgiesbrecht wrote:
Thanks Kal, that's actually linked to the 120V version, which will actually put out 500W when run at 120V. I actually use the 240V version and run it at lower voltage;

Your Amazon.ca link previously went to the 120V / 500W version so I had used that. Here's the 240V / 500W version on Amazon.ca:

https://www.amazon.ca/DERNORD-Immersion-Cartridge-Heating-Replacement/dp/B074KB8SP1/ref=as_li_ss_tl?dchild=1&keywords=Dernord+Cartridge+Heater+120V+500W+Hot+Rod+Heating+Element+1/2+Inch+Thread&qid=1586180061&sr=8-1&th=1&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelecbrew-20&linkId=e12907199266486188c4ff53a59803bb&language=en_CA

I've updated it above as well.

Cheers!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> Yeast & Fermentation All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum



Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group