Return to TheElectricBrewery.com
  [ Shop ]   [ Building ]   [ Using ]   [ Recipes ]   [ Testimonials ]   [ Gallery ]   [ FAQ ]   [ About Us ]   [ Contact Us ]   [ Newsletter ]

Log inLog in   RegisterRegister   User Control PanelUser Control Panel   Private MessagesPrivate Messages   MembershipClub Memberships   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   Photo AlbumsPhoto Albums   Forum FAQForum FAQ


Mashed at a very high temperature

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> All Grain Brewing
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
alphakry



Joined: 27 Oct 2018
Posts: 56


Drinking: Cider [extract]

Working on: Gin Barrel Saison [extract]


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:44 pm    Post subject: Mashed at a very high temperature Reply with quote


        Register to remove this ad. It's free!
I have removed my posts from the recipe thread since they became a bit off topic and have instead pasted them here.
(Kal - please feel free move your replies here and delete my posts from the recipe thread to clean it up)


I am still very interested in being as creative and critical thinking as possible in an attempt to salvage this batch and avoid a drain pour... so I'd like to continue the discussion here...


[original post]
I ran into a big problem with this last batch of Electric Hop Candy Jr that i'm hoping to get both of your input on... I made an amateur mistake by not continuing recirculation in the HLT during mashing. So the HLT temp continued to raise as the elements fired and I managed to mash at a much higher temp then the planned 160. In fact, it may of hit temps as high as 190...

So my question is... what should my expectations be? I believe this would cause less sugars to be extracted and hence my wort will be less sweet then it should be. Combined with the fact that this is a multiple dry hop addition beer, I am super concerned that any dry hopping at this stage will add serious bitterness to the beer that would normally be countered by it's sweetness. Should I significantly reduce the scheduled dry hop additions in the coming days? Initial taste tests seem to be less sweeter then I remembered in the previous batch.

I realize this should of been something easy to catch by paying attention to the differences between the HLT and MT readings, but I have been struggling with low-confidence in my temp probe readings since first getting them as they've always seemed to swing by large amounts. So not having confidence in the number caused me to ignore a pretty obvious sign staring me in the face and now i'm stuck with something that only half-resembled my intent. :/


Here are the brew notes, if they help in forming what I should expect...


10:20 grains added, HLT & MT read 160. (This is likely when I turned the HLT recirc off)
10:36 Mash timer started
10:50 MT reading 176
11:10 Problem identified. HLT circulation started and uncovered both MT and HLT to help bring down temps
11:21 MT hits as high as 190
11:35 MT around 175
11:40 Stopped HERMS recirculation (likely something I should of done sooner)
12:00 Mash temp down to 152, recirculation started again through HERMS
12:11 Started raising temp for mash out at 168
12:53 Reached mashout at 168, mash out timer started



Embarassed shakeshead in worry and anticipation of any helpful tips to save this beer!

_________________
painfully aware of his inexperience and the questions that come due to it...


Last edited by alphakry on Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
alphakry



Joined: 27 Oct 2018
Posts: 56


Drinking: Cider [extract]

Working on: Gin Barrel Saison [extract]


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
alphakry wrote:
I managed to mash at a much higher temp then the planned 160. In fact, it may of hit temps as high as 190... So my question is... what should my expectations be?

Depending on how long you were at or below the denaturing tempeature (168-172F), the resultant wort will not be very fermentable.

Quote:
I believe this would cause less sugars to be extracted and hence my wort will be less sweet then it should be.

No, sugar will still be extracted, it just won't be sugar that is easily fermentable by the yeast (it'll be long chain). End result would be close to the same starting gravity (SG) I would think, but your finishing gravity (FG) after fermentation would be very high as the yeast will not be able to convert much of the sugars to alcohol. This means the beer will be low ABV and sweet.

Quote:
Combined with the fact that this is a multiple dry hop addition beer, I am super concerned that any dry hopping at this stage will add serious bitterness to the beer that would normally be countered by it's sweetness. Should I significantly reduce the scheduled dry hop additions in the coming days?

Not sure, as it's unclear how long you were below 168-170F.



If you got 30 mins near the correct 160F you will likely be fine as at that higher mash temp the conversion happens quickly. I don't think I'd change anything. If not (i.e. the mash jumped quickly to above 168-170F) it may be a drain pour as you'd have gone well above the recommended 168-170F max temp so you would have denatured the enzymes quickly. Going back down in temp and continuing will not help as the damage would already be done.

How did the wort taste? You may have some excess tannin extraction if you went as high as 190F in the mash. But that said, there's so much sugar that it's typically not an issue (like a decoction mash where part of it is pulled off and boiled).

Kal

_________________
painfully aware of his inexperience and the questions that come due to it...
Back to top
alphakry



Joined: 27 Oct 2018
Posts: 56


Drinking: Cider [extract]

Working on: Gin Barrel Saison [extract]


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal! So far, the taste seems not far off from expectations. It's got mildly sweet and the aroma is nice. it also seems fermentation kicked off pretty much on time.

What is your thoughts about an addition of fermentable sugars back in, to compensate for those not achieved during mashing?
I could remash a small batch or boil some light LME and add...

kal wrote:
alphakry wrote:
What is your thoughts about an addition of fermentable sugars back in, to compensate for those not achieved during mashing?

I don't think I'd do that. If the beer has a bunch of unfermentable sugars adding more sugar isn't going to change that. You're just adding alcohol. You can't fix what happened.

Kal


hmm... but that'd be what i'd want, no? You're right about not being able to do much to make up for the sugars that wont ferment out... what's done is done. Would the hop additions still help counter those unfermentable sugars?

Really. it's bringing the alcohol content up that I'd want most to achieve, so i'm not drinking something that closer resembles iced tea! Smile so i wonder why this wouldn't be advisable?

also, here are the stats from the Tilt i have inside. It was calibrated beforehand, so the numbers shoooould be accurate (though some of those dramatic drops leave me wondering)

That said, you can see that fermentation has been pretty rapid and may of finally found a plateau since hitting 1.019 early today... which is where it still remains now and is the concern when it comes to the yeast being done with the sugars.




_________________
painfully aware of his inexperience and the questions that come due to it...
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10077
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alphakry wrote:
Really. it's bringing the alcohol content up that I'd want most to achieve, so i'm not drinking something that closer resembles iced tea! Smile so i wonder why this wouldn't be advisable?

Your final gravity will not go any lower by adding fermentable sugars so there will still be sweetness no matter what you do. The ratio of SG to FG will become bigger however. I suppose if you go high enough with SG, eventually the extra sweetness that you don't want will not longer be as noticeable.

I just wouldn't do anything until you figure out what your FG is. You don't know how it's going to turn out. Once it's all fermented out if it's too sweet you can consider trying to kick up fermenting again by adding something very fermentable like dextrose. Not sure I'd use DME/LME as that won't ferment out completely and you'll push your FG up even higher.

Quote:
also, here are the stats from the Tilt i have inside. It was calibrated beforehand, so the numbers shoooould be accurate (though some of those dramatic drops leave me wondering)

It's good for seeing a trend, but don't assume it's accurate from one unique measurement to another in wort because it isn't, as the graph shows the gravity going up and down by as much as 10 points which is impossible.

Quote:
That said, you can see that fermentation has been pretty rapid and may of finally found a plateau since hitting 1.019 early today...

You've seen it stay at 1.019 over a 90 minute period. That doesn't mean it's done or hit a plateau. On the 26th over a 6-7 hour period it was at 1.024 but wasn't done yet.

Forget about it and leave it for a few days and ignore the tilt. It's giving you information that you think is useful but it isn't.

As Charlie would say: RDWHAHB. Wink

One of the worst things you can do about fermenting beer is fret, because fretting leads to wanting to do something, and doing something with fermented beer that isn't going where you want is usaully the last thing you want to do as it usually just makes things worse.

Generally speaking you can't fix broken beer. Leave it for few days, see what happens.

What was your SG?

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
alphakry



Joined: 27 Oct 2018
Posts: 56


Drinking: Cider [extract]

Working on: Gin Barrel Saison [extract]


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Kal. All very valuable advice and certainly great to hear.

sorry for the confusion, i scrolled down and cut off a lot of data to keep it to a respectable sized JPG. It actually was about 10hrs (12 now) at 1.019
I also just confirmed that same reading with my floating hydrometer. I use the tilt exactly as you described, a tool to monitor changes and trends... but still rely on the old trusty tools to get reliable readings.


SG seemed to be pretty far off target, 1.042. So I believe the mash temp issues help explain that.


It also seems very odd to me that the gravity would of dropped that quickly! 1.042 to 1.019 in around 36 hours?

_________________
painfully aware of his inexperience and the questions that come due to it...
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10077
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alphakry wrote:
It actually was about 10hrs (12 now) at 1.019. I also just confirmed that same reading with my floating hydrometer. I use the tilt exactly as you described, a tool to monitor changes and trends... but still rely on the old trusty tools to get reliable readings.

I recommend staying out of the beer. If it was 1.024 one day and 1.019 the next it's not done. Just leave it alone for at least another 3-4 days. There's no need to measure it every day. All that can do is maybe make things worse. Beer likes to be left alone and will do its thing no matter what you want it to do. Wink

Quote:
SG seemed to be pretty far off target, 1.042. So I believe the mash temp issues help explain that.
It also seems very odd to me that the gravity would of dropped that quickly! 1.042 to 1.019 in around 36 hours?

Was a floating hydrometer used both times?
Did you compensate for temperature?
What temperature has the wort been fermenting at?


Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
alphakry



Joined: 27 Oct 2018
Posts: 56


Drinking: Cider [extract]

Working on: Gin Barrel Saison [extract]


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was a floating hydrometer used both times?

Sadly no. The SG reading was mesured only by the tilt... yep, I know how much I should trust that reading... sadly in the fog of war and my head still racing about the mistake I made, I did not confirm the reading with my hydrometer before pitching...

Did you compensate for temperature?
you're right - i read 1.042 @ 70... so that should correct to 1.043


What temperature has the wort been fermenting at?
yeast was pitched at and it's been kept steady at 68F

_________________
painfully aware of his inexperience and the questions that come due to it...
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10077
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since your tilt seems to give readings that can be off by 10 points per your graph, I don't think you can draw any conclusions about how fast fermentation is going.

I say ignore all numbers, leave it a week, and taste it. If it's too sweet you can try adding sugar to bump up the gravity to try and offset the sweetness a bit, bit I think that's just a waste of time and sugar. YMMV

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
alphakry



Joined: 27 Oct 2018
Posts: 56


Drinking: Cider [extract]

Working on: Gin Barrel Saison [extract]


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok cool, sounds like a plan. Would you still recommend I stick to the dry hop additions as planned?
_________________
painfully aware of his inexperience and the questions that come due to it...
Back to top
kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10077
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm assuming you already added hops at high krausen per the recipe.

You now need to wait until fermentation is done before you rack onto new dry hops.
If it finishes too high and it tastes too sweet and you decide to dump it, you won't obviously need to dry hop.
If you decide you want to try adding more sugar to the primary, you'll need to wait until that's done before moving ahead and racking onto new dry hops.

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Back to top
View user's photo album (21 photos)
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic   Printer-friendly view    TheElectricBrewery.com Forum Index -> All Grain Brewing All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Support our site by purchasing through this link. We thank you!

Forum powered by phpBB © phpBB Group