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Hop Stopper Issues (previous BK30 version)

 
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T-Bone




Joined: 11 Apr 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Kinglake, Australia


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:22 pm    Post subject: Hop Stopper Issues (previous BK30 version) Reply with quote


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Hi all, Kal,

I purchased a hop stopper a couple of years ago (the previous version, is see there is a new 2.0 version now) and I've never really been able to get it to work well.
It took me some time to work out exactly what the problem was but now I have, I'm not sure how to resolve it reliably.

What I found each time I used it, was that as the wort level got to the top of the hop stopper, air would start coming through and stuff up the pump. At this point there is still a bit more than 10 litres in my 20gal kettle which is a lot more than I'm willing to let go of.

At first I thought it was a bad seal on the quick disconnect but it was not. I then suspected a bad O ring in the ball valve where the hot stopper pipe goes in but it was not.
Then last brew, I was doing an oatmeal stout. This didn't have much hops at all so you would not expect issues with the hop stoppers ability to cope with it. It has 160g of pellets in total at the end of the boil, in ~50 litres of wort.

Historically I was doing a two stage chilling process which was very effective but lost too much wort in the hoses so I changed it up this time. Previously I was filling my HLT with cold water and 3 bags of ice, then I would pump the hot wort, straight off boil, through my counterflow chiller, then through he HERMS coil and directly into the fermenter. This was great in that it would come out at 18 degrees but I lost about 7 litres in the pipes...

This time I just used just the counter flow chiller and recirculated back into the BK until it was all chilled. What I found was that after about 10 minutes of recirculating the flow rate had diminishied to a dribble.... I thought the pump may have been slowing down or clogged up or something but it wasn't.

The issue is that even with very small volumes of hops, over time it completely clogs the mesh on the hop stopper to the point that it can barely suck any wort through it... going slow, even ludicrously slow, does nothing to resolve this.

It gets packed onto it and compacted so hard that the mesh starts to collapse in with the negative pressure on the inside of it.

Then when the wort level hits the top of the hop stopper, and the connection to the pipe is exposed it sucks a heap of air in wherever it can.

I scraped a section of compacted hops off the top with a metal spoon managed to get it going again until the wort level was below the top of the hop stopper. Getting the compacted hops off the bottom of it is much harder because its not very accessible.
It was quite difficult to scrape the hops off it - the degree to which it had compacted on was quite shocking.

I'm happy that I've worked out what the issue is, but it seems like design flaw that can't really be solved. The point of it is to stop hops getting through, so by that very nature, it's going to get clogged up with hops...
This issue seems to be a lot less to do with the speed at which you are pumping but simply how long you've been pumping for as it just builds up over time and it's the build up in suction pressure that compacts it so hard.

In future brews I'm going to stop the pump a bit before it reaches the surface of the hop stopper and scrape off as much hops as I can before continuing.

I also have an idea for a removable first layer of defence that should fix the issue. Basically a mesh dome with a turned up rim, that sits over the top of the hop stopper. As the wort level gets low, I can just lift that out with the builk of the hops on it and leave the hop stopper to stop the rest. Basically a hops stopper to stop hops clogging up the hop stopper... seems somewhat ridiculous that I need to do that but don't see any other solution.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi! Sorry for the troubles! I'm going to forward to the Hop Stopper manufacturer as they are best positioned to assist and get these issues resolved for you. Look for a response here soon. Cheers!

Kal

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T-Bone




Joined: 11 Apr 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Kinglake, Australia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal, I appreciate that.
I would be quite interested to know if there is anything that can be done. It was quite expensive and I had high hopes for it. A solution that doesn't involve building a pre-hop stopper, hop stopper would be great. Very Happy
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While you wait for the manufacturer, given that this is the previous (older) no longer sold version of the Hop Stopper that you purchased 2.5 years from a couple of years ago I thought I'd provide a few hints. (Had to dig my my notes on this old version first1). First one si from original order page regarding using a pump and losing suction when it gets exposed to air:

Quote:
Hints on use with a pump with the Hop Stopper

Slow down the pump rate to a very slow trickle as soon as the Hop Stopper becomes exposed to air. Due to the efficient nature of the Hop Stopper, pumping too fast allows air to enter the filter screen from the top instead of wort entering from the bottom. This results in the Hop Stopper completely draining which in turn causes it to lose siphon. Watch for bubbles in the hose leaving the Boil Kettle as the sign that the siphon is getting ready to break. If this happens, immediately CLOSE the Wort Pump valve for approximately 10 seconds to allow wort to refill the Hop Stopper screen cavity. Then slowly OPEN the Wort Pump valve to finish draining the boil kettle at a reduced flow rate.


Recirculation through the original Hop Stopper like you're doing is also not recommended as it can easily clog it. The original Hop Stopper is not compatible with recirculation, especially chilling as it forms cold break as it forms a tenacious film on the surface that impedes wort flow.

This is all for the original 1.0 version that we stopped selling some time ago. The changes made to the 2.0 version were geared to help both issues you are experiencing (not having to slow down flow once exposed to air, and some slow recirculation allowed).

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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ihomebrewsolutions




Joined: 09 Apr 2015
Posts: 19
Location: Knoxville, TN


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey T-Bone, Dennis Collins here from Innovative Homebrew Solutions, manufacturer of the Hop Stopper 2.0 product line. Your description of the problem is accurate. When you drain the kettle, wort must go through the screen in order to exit the kettle. With a pump, it is possible to flow wort through the screen faster than it can flow on its own. Once any portion of the screen is exposed to the air, now both wort and air can enter the screen cavity. If the flow of wort out the kettle is faster than wort can flow into the screen, the screen can actually empty out completely, breaking the siphon, even though there is still wort in the kettle. This is the reason why I recommend slowing the flow down toward the end of draining.

Any time you have a screen type filter, the potential for clogs is there especially when particular processes are employed. In the case of recirculation, the debris is packed onto the screen and clear wort is fed back into the kettle. Eventually, every single bit of debris is packed onto the screen as the wort is recycled over and over again. This includes hops, break, adjuncts, all of it. The original Hop Stopper design had a shape that provided the least amount of filtration area at the bottom of the kettle (an upside down cone). The Hop Stopper 2.0 was totally redesigned to put the most filtration area at the lowest part of the kettle where it is most needed. The upper section has "hop cone" to help collect debris and allow wort to be filtered through the large surface area at the bottom. This redesign was a huge performance improvement, but still, it is a screen based filter so it is possible to clog it up eventually.

Kettle recirculation is a very popular practice that serves many purposes. However, it does make it harder for the screen to do its job. While there are advantages to kettle recirculation, I always try to discourage this. There are ways to accomplish the same ends without recirculation. My recommended process is to use an in-line chiller with a single pass into the fermenter. This is by far the fastest chilling method since chilling and draining are accomplished in the same step. If your chill water is too warm for a single pass, I recommend a pre-chiller for the chill water. This is an easy thing to put together, a copper coil immersed in a bucket of ice water. This should only be necessary for the warmest parts of the year. For those attempting to bring the entire wort volume temperature down for hop character purposes, I can only say that homebrew volumes are pretty small. The difference between a recirculation step and a straight drain at boiling temps is probably 10-15 minutes tops. I don't think the small time difference amounts to any discernible decrease in hop character - but that's only my opinion. Recirculation is also employed when using an immersion chiller. This tends to put an even greater strain on the screen since cold break is now part of the debris equation as well. Cold break forms a tenacious film on the screen surface and can impede flow even more than hops.

Sorry to be long winded, but this issue is pretty involved and all the aspects should be considered when designing your brewing process. Here is what I recommend:

1. Use an in-line chiller. Plate chillers are the most efficient. The Hop Stopper 2.0 works great with plate chillers since their small flow channels are so intolerant of debris of any kind.

2. Don't recirculate if at all possible. Use a single pass into the fermenter and utilize a pre-chiller for chill water if necessary.

3. Use chemical santizers. If recirculation for sanitizing is needed, use a very low flow rate. Temperature is the only consideration so very low flow rates will sanitize just as effectively as higher ones.

4. Don't exceed 1 GPM on wort flow. High flow rates tend to compact the debris on the screen.

5. When draining, slow the flow down toward the end and if you see or hear any air in the line and you know there is still wort in the kettle, shut the flow off completely and wait about 10 seconds for the wort level in the kettle and inside the screen cavity to equalize. Then start the flow back up and meter it until the kettle is empty.

6. Avoid BIAB with the Hop Stopper. Mashing is a process that involves huge amounts of debris even though it is contained in a bag. There is lots of dust (which basically turns to mud) and break material that play havoc with any screen type filter. The Hop Stopper should be used for a traditional boil process only.

7. If you notice a significant drop in flow, you can swirl the kettle to try and lift debris off the screen and restore flow. The major portion of the filtration is done via the large flat area on the bottom of the screen. The natural undulations around the circumference of the screen help to allow wort to flow underneath. Swirling the wort can help to open up these flow paths.

Again, sorry to be long winded but I wanted to hit as many points as I could regarding your problem. If I can be of further assistance, please let me know.

Prosit!

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T-Bone




Joined: 11 Apr 2017
Posts: 25
Location: Kinglake, Australia


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis, and Kal...

You both provide the same tips which if you read my original post, you would see that I employ that technique and it does not solve the problem.
It's quite frustrating to spend the time providing details of your process, only to be told that if you do 'x y z' it will solve the problem, when that's already part of your process..!!


Regarding, not recirculating:

Quote:
Historically I was doing a two stage chilling process which was very effective but lost too much wort in the hoses so I changed it up this time. Previously I was filling my HLT with cold water and 3 bags of ice, then I would pump the hot wort, straight off boil, through my counterflow chiller, then through he HERMS coil and directly into the fermenter. This was great in that it would come out at 18 degrees but I lost about 7 litres in the pipes...


As per above, I have not been recirculating and still the issue persists. I have only recirculated on one occasion.

Regarding going slow:

Quote:
The issue is that even with very small volumes of hops, over time it completely clogs the mesh on the hop stopper to the point that it can barely suck any wort through it... going slow, even ludicrously slow, does nothing to resolve this.


Irrespective of whether you are recirculating or not, all the wort still has to go through the mesh and thus ALL the hops will become clogged to the outside over time (this is a function of time, not flow rate, or method).
It makes no difference if you recirculate or not, this is still the case.

I have tried various speeds from full bore to very slow and over time, it becomes clogged to the point that it starts collapsing on itself from the negative pressure inside it. Then when the air hits the top it sucks it in and the mesh pops back out. Going slow does not fix this!

When doing a single pass, (not recirculating), the flow rate is VERY low the entire time (in the realm of a litre a minute), not just at the end, because otherwise the wort does not cool down enough. The issue still occurs then.

The fact that you re-designed it is a pretty clear indication of an issue with the original design....

I'll probably just build a removable pre-filter to cover it and pull that out near then end.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry to hear our suggestions on using the original v1.0 Hop Stopper haven't worked out for you. I successfully used one myself for about 8 years (which is why it was brought on board here in the first place). There must be something different about your setup/process that I'm just not seeing in the descriptions/text. Dennis (the Hop Stopper manufacturer) will often go into great detail to help troubleshoot with customers (Edit: I see that he's replied now below). Cheers!

Kal

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We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0


Last edited by kal on Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:42 pm; edited 2 times in total
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ihomebrewsolutions




Joined: 09 Apr 2015
Posts: 19
Location: Knoxville, TN


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

T-Bone,

I'm sorry about the problems you are having. The troubleshooting steps that Kal and I recommended are based on many years of experience and personal one-on-one correspondence with hundreds of home brewers. I apologize that these steps do not seem to work in your situation. Because each system is unique, sometimes it is in the details of the process that things do not work the way they should. If you would like to troubleshoot offline about your specific situation, feel free to e-mail me at HopStopper@theelectricbrewery.com.

Prosit!

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Home of the Hop Stopper 2.0!
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/hop-stopper
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Bootleg




Joined: 02 Mar 2016
Posts: 4
Location: Auckland New Zealand


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, I have had similar issues when I recently built a hop stopper ver 2 style with the concave top. first time I used it I used my old procedure of whirlpooling at full pump capacity while cooling via recirculation…..huge mistake, blocked it in minutes and collapsed it. It’s now in the recycling rubbish bin. I can see now why it failed so miserably but I’m not keen on the trickle cooling into fermenter required for filter type hops removal as I like to drop my wort temp fast, so recirculating is my preferred style. So, I’m back to having a trub dam fitted to the pump pickup in boil kettle and an extended return pipe for recirculating / whirlpooling. This leaves the bulk of hops behind and what does get to the fermenter gets dropped out of the bottom tap at day two of fermentation (SS Brewing conical). You mentioned you stopped using recirculation and HERMS coil to add to the cooling process due to wort loss in the pipes. To get around this I have a male quick coupler on my CO2 manifold that is the same style used on the silicon pipes the Electric Brewery (and I) use. When I have finished pumping into the fermenter via the cooling cools (after I have dropped the kettle contents to 18 degree C) I turn off everything, disconnect the pipe from the kettle outlet and connect the CO2 line to it. Set the reg to 2~5 PSI and open the gas line tap. This blows all the wort in the lines into the fermenter resulting in zero wastage. I know this puts a bit of CO2 into the wort in the fermenter which is not desirable at this stage of fermentation, but I use pure oxy to aerate my wort so I’m sure I more than offset the small about of CO2 that gets in there. I could use the Oxy bottle for this process but oxy is very expensive compared to a 7 kg bottle CO2 refill cost. Thumbs Up
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bootleg wrote:
.... I’m not keen on the trickle cooling into fermenter required for filter type hops removal as I like to drop my wort temp fast, so recirculating is my preferred style.

This is getting off topic, but what you mention here is actually a reason I don't like to recirculate and instead use a one pass CFC. The wort sits "safe" at near boiling and is instantaneously chilled to near pitch temps as it passes through.

With recirc, because the entire wort volume is chilled at once it chills more slowly and spends more time in the temperature zone where it is more susceptible to infection. Slow cooling can also lead to excessive dimethyl sulfides (DMS) causing a 'cooked corn' taste and aroma in the beer.

Lots of different ways to do this and it probably depends on the beer you want to make. For example, for a couple of years now I've been combining both methods for some of my new england style IPAs: I use an immersion chiller to chill the entire batch down to hop stand temp and then steep hops for ~30 mins (no recirc but same idea), then over ~15 mins do a one pass to pitch temp as I go into the fermenter using a CFC.

YMMV!

Kal

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Bootleg




Joined: 02 Mar 2016
Posts: 4
Location: Auckland New Zealand


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points on why not to do recirculation during cooling. Can’t say I have had any DMS or infections yet but I’ve only brewed about 30 beers so far. The potential is certainly there so I’m going to have another go at getting my CFC setup to chill in a single pass. Currently it can’t get there. Poor efficiency of the chiller I purchased ☹. Will try this passing it through the HERMS coil after the CFC.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck!

Kal

_________________
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We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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