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30A Control Panel

 
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Crusty



Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 5
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:40 am    Post subject: 30A Control Panel Reply with quote


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Hi guys.
For those of you that brew on The Electric Brewery control panel, I have some questions regarding the mash PID.
I have brewed previously on a 3V Rims & Herms & the point of control or measure is at the heat exchange outlet of the Rims tube or Herms coil. The Electric brewery seems to have the point of measure or control at the exit point of the HLT where the coil is situated. My old system had 3V & a smaller pot as the Herms. Water entered the Herms in the bottom, through the coil then exited from the top. This is where the temp was measured & controlled via the PID. The mash bed temp was never monitored or controlled via it's own PID, the Herms exit was the mash temp. On Brew day, do you set the HLT as the mash temp you need regardless of the mash bed temp? The mash takes quite a while to equalize & catch up to temp adjustments. For example, If we strike in at 149 ( HLT temp ) add our grain & wait till HLT temp is again at 149, then start our timer or wait till mash PID reads 149 before beginning the timer. The same goes for the mash out, do we just increase our HLT temp to mash out then start timer or are we waiting for the mash bed PID temp to read mash out temp?
In a youtube video of another electric brewery supplier, they suggest setting your HLT PID a couple of degrees higher to allow for temp losses from hoses etc so the mash bed is at desired temp & they suggested that the mash PID is purely monitoring the bed temp only & not controlled in any way via the PID?
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10077
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:11 am    Post subject: Re: 30A Control Panel Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum!
Crusty wrote:

For those of you that brew on The Electric Brewery control panel, I have some questions regarding the mash PID.
I have brewed previously on a 3V Rims & Herms & the point of control or measure is at the heat exchange outlet of the Rims tube or Herms coil. The Electric brewery seems to have the point of measure or control at the exit point of the HLT where the coil is situated.

Correct. Measuring at the HERMS coil output is of no value as it will always match the HLT value. It doesn't show your true mash temp.

I measure the MASH temp at the MLT output so that I know when the entire mash grain bed has reached the target mash temp. The target temp is set by the HLT.

Quote:
On Brew day, do you set the HLT as the mash temp you need regardless of the mash bed temp?

Correct. Set and forget. Set your HLT to whatever you want your mash at and itíll follow. The HLT reaches temp first and is followed by the mash.

See the build articles and the BREW DAY STEP BY STEP for complete explanations as to why and how it works. There are videos in the BREW DAY STEP BY STEP that show exactly how this works.

Quote:
In a youtube video of another electric brewery supplier, they suggest setting your HLT PID a couple of degrees higher to allow for temp losses from hoses etc so the mash bed is at desired temp & they suggested that the mash PID is purely monitoring the bed temp only & not controlled in any way via the PID?

I can't speak for other suppliers but the mash PID in my design is indeed for monitoring. If you use my suggested parts and follow my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP the two temps should follow. No need to set the HLT higher.

Cheers!

Kal

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Crusty



Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 5
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal.
I was hoping you would chime in & cheers for the welcome.
I purchased the 30A panel from you last year but it's been a long slow process to complete it due to the horrible strength of the Aussie dollar. Just the Eagle signal timer I got from you ended up costing just over $400.00AUD landed just to give you some idea of our pathetic dollar strength at present. I will be ordering the 3 temp probes & both elements next order, hopefully soon.
The reason I asked these questions is I noticed in some of your youtube videos, you started the timer when the HLT temp was reached but the mash PID hadn't reached your set point but timing commenced any way. I was a little unclear as to the relevance of the mash PID being only a temp monitor & assumed the HLT temp was what you were basing your set points on. I took note that you mentioned the mash bed temp, mash PID will soon follow the HLT set point. So, if you were to ramp for mash out from 149 to 168, we need to wait until the mash PID is at 168 before starting our timer for 10min mash out even though the HLT will get to that set point much quicker.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10077
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crusty wrote:
The reason I asked these questions is I noticed in some of your youtube videos, you started the timer when the HLT temp was reached but the mash PID hadn't reached your set point but timing commenced any way.

Interesting. I'm not sure why I'd do that other than to possibly see how far the MLT lags behind the HLT. Do you have a link to the video? I'm curious now! Wink

Quote:
I was a little unclear as to the relevance of the mash PID being only a temp monitor & assumed the HLT temp was what you were basing your set points on.

It is, but if I want to mash at (say) 155F, I want to also know how long the mash is that that temp is we need a temperature display to show the mash temp so that I know once that temp is reached. Example: With water in both the HLT and MLT, the set the HLT temperature to 155F and turn both pumps on so that everything is recirculating. The HLT heats up and holds at 155F first, while the MLT heats up 'stealing' heat from the HLT. Since it's decoupled it's normal that it lags behind the HLT. If I want to mash for 60 minutes, I'll start the timer once the MLT reaches mash temp and not before.

Quote:
So, if you were to ramp for mash out from 149 to 168, we need to wait until the mash PID is at 168 before starting our timer for 10min mash out even though the HLT will get to that set point much quicker.

Correct! Since it's the mash temp we care about.

Kal

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Crusty



Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 5
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frsuCg35V8Q&t=54s

Just before the 3min mark, the HLT temp is at 149, desired mash temp but mash temp PID only reads 140 & you started your 90min mash.
I can only assume that the mash temp will get to 149 relatively quickly? Under 10mins? This is what was confusing me about desired mash temp if you were basing the set temp off the HLT or waiting for the mash to reach set point befor mashing for 90mins.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10077
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah! Ok, I understand now. The strike water temperature (the water in the MLT) did reach 149F and the grain was added. Because the grain is at room temperature (72F) and not 149F the temperature of the mash drops. In this case to 140F. The mash then heats back up to 149F, in this case it says it took 9 minutes in the video.

For more info see the STEP 5: MASH part of by BREW DAY STEP BY STEP guide: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step?page=6

Quote:
The initial mash temperature will be a few degrees below our target as the grain was cold. After a few minutes of recirculation the mash temperature will have risen back up to 149F. Having the mash a few degrees below the target mash temperature for a few minutes will not have a noticeable effect on the starch to sugar conversion. Some users may choose to set their Hot Liquor Tank a few degrees higher (such as 154F) when heating their strike water, and then lower the temperature to 149F after mashing in. This would reduce the ramp-up time but we don't bother as it does not have any adverse effects. The beer is not dryer than we expect (a lower mash temperature produces more fermentables which results in a dryer beer). On brewing setups that do not use our recommended parts, the mash temperature may never quite reach the Hot Liquor Tank temperature due to heat loss in the Mash/Lauter Tun, hoses, and pumps. To compensate you may set the Hot Liquor Tank temperature a degree or two higher.


You can certainly wait until the mash gets back up to mash temp before starting the timer, but in this case conversion is already starting the moment you add the grain to the hot water so there's no "delaying" it and I chose to start the timer then. That said, if I had chosen to wait here, it would have had me mashing for an extra 9 minutes, not something that would have created a noticeable difference in the product.

This is also a beer I want dry so I don't mind going low for those 9 minutes. In fact, sometimes I'll do that on purpose, or hold somewhere in the 140's for a while to dry things out. For beers that I mash much higher (like my Electric Hop Candy Jr mashed at 160F) I will often heat the HLT to 5-6 degrees above the target mash temp so that the 9 minutes is reduced. The system is flexible, you can do anything you like. The brewer has complete control.

It's important to remember too that within the conversion temperature range, the lower the temperature the longer things take. At the low end the system heats faster than the enzymes have time to react much so it doesn't result in overly drying out a beer by being low for a few minutes. If someone's setup is really slow at ramping then I suppose that could have an affect.

Cheers!

Kal

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Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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Crusty



Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 5
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome, thanks Kal.
Like you said, you could possibly set your strike temp higher to account for those temp losses, something available to us in Beer Tools Pro I believe, so you can reduce that 9min wait so your mash time is not increased. Something I will definitely be looking at once I get the brewery all sorted.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10077
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no time savings, as if you heat the HLT higher then you're simply waiting longer for that phase instead of waiting later for the MLT to get back to temp. But if you prefer to have the mash hit the temp bang on when you add the cold grain to the hot water there are certainly lots of calculators available for this (both online and in software) as you mentioned. It's how picnic cooler mashers do it as they have no means to add or remove heat other than adding more hot or cold water. Google "strike temp calculator".

Good luck!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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Crusty



Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 5
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal.
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