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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Thu May 02, 2019 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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I would imagine it is yeast dependent, and remember that you're looking for cel growth, not fermentation so off flavours do not matter as you will be dumping the 'beer' and only keeping the yeast. Is 86-87F too high for 1968 to multiply correctly in a starter? That I'm not sure. That may be a question you want to ask the yeast manufacturer.
Kal
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alphakry
Joined: 27 Oct 2018 Posts: 88
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Link Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Still waiting to hear back from Wyeast.
However in the meantime... my temps have averaged between 86-92 degrees so I have to think that’s not good. To add to that, I’m guessing the look of my starter isn’t a good thing either...
https://youtu.be/hy9TNAl3g5g
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 2:34 am Post subject: |
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alphakry wrote: | To add to that, I’m guessing the look of my starter isn’t a good thing either... |
WY1968 is very chunky (aka flocculant) and normally looks like that.
Kal
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alphakry
Joined: 27 Oct 2018 Posts: 88
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Link Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 3:02 am Post subject: |
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Ok! That’s comforting! The first few hours while it was in the 70-78 degreee range - things looked similar to videos I had seen you post. So I got pretty worried once it looked like egg drop soup! Still not sure how I feel about the temps - thinking I may need to setup my stir plate in the fridge next time!! But I may give it a go anyhow for the batch of porter I had hoped to use it on.
_________________ painfully aware of his inexperience and the questions that come due to it...
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chastuck
Joined: 06 Oct 2013 Posts: 193 Location: Beckenham, Kent, UK
Drinking: Bitter
Working on: IPA
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Link Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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When you say: "On brew day carefully pour off (decant) the wort and discard leaving the yeast behind in the flask." How do you decant the wort? Do you just tip the flask carefully and pour it off, or do you siphon it off? I was only wondering if pouring it out of the flask would disturb the settled yeast in the flask and some would be lost.
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klindeman
Joined: 20 Apr 2019 Posts: 8 Location: Seattle
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Link Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 3:23 am Post subject: |
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If you put it in the fridge, you will get a pretty solid layer of yeast on the bottom and liquid on the top. I just pour it out and the yeast isn’t disturbed much, especially if it was put in the fridge. You could also just leave it out overnight and it would probably separate enough.
Make sure you don’t pour all of it out though, i usually leave a good 1.5 inches so i can swirl it before i pitch it.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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What klindeman said!
Some yeast is more flocculant (clumps up) than others so some like WLP002/WY1968 will clump with quickly and solidly. Others not so much. That said, leaving it in the fridge for 24 hours or so lets it settle out nicely and then you just pour it out, watching to be careful to not pour out any of the yeast (sediment) itself. I usually pour off as much as I can and leave nothing behind (if possible) then add a cup or two of wort from the beer I'm going to pitch it in to to be able to swirl it up.
Kal
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pedactyl
Joined: 01 Dec 2017 Posts: 38 Location: Seattle
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Link Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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This might be addressed elsewhere but I couldn't seem to find it.
I can foresee many instances where due to scheduling constraints, I would need to hold the yeast in the fridge for a few days before I could brew. How long can I leave the starter in the fridge before I brew assuming I've hit my ending cell count? I'm assuming the yeast degrade over time just like they do in the packs but is there a rule of thumb or calculation I could apply?
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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pedactyl wrote: | I can foresee many instances where due to scheduling constraints, I would need to hold the yeast in the fridge for a few days before I could brew. How long can I leave the starter in the fridge before I brew assuming I've hit my ending cell count? I'm assuming the yeast degrade over time just like they do in the packs but is there a rule of thumb or calculation I could apply? |
You are correct about the yeast dying off over time - no different than what happens in the manufacturer's smackpack or pouch that you purchase. You can use the yeast pitch rate calculator I link to in the instructions for an estimate as to how much they've died off. Just enter the date you finished making the starter as the manufacturing date. For example, if you made 800B cells on May 15, 2019, enter "liquid packs" as "8" with a manufacturer date of May 15, 2019. If you made the yeast 7 days ago, enter a date 7 days earlier. The calculator will tell you in this example that you have 95% viability so instead of 800B cells you have around 760B.
I usually try and plan starters so that they spend 24-48 hours in the fridge before use to give them time to settle out. If I have to go leave them for an extra couple of days I don't fret about it. I also don't account for the few days of yeast dying off between making it and pitching it. If you want to you can, but the few days difference isn't going to amount to much of a change, especially given that these sorts of a calculators are pretty much guesses to begin with.
Cheers!
Kal
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pedactyl
Joined: 01 Dec 2017 Posts: 38 Location: Seattle
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Link Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Kal!
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alphakry
Joined: 27 Oct 2018 Posts: 88
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Link Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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What about storing the yeast dump after fermentation?
I ran into a scheduling issue where I ended up dumping my yeast from the conical into a few vessels - but didn't have time to rinse/wash the yeast... so instead, the dump was just capped off and brought down to around 37F/3C degrees. They've been that way for about 8 days now.
Looking at the attached photos, I noticed the layers of trub/yeast aren't as distinct and separate from each other as they were in the first 24 hours of letting it chill and settle. Can I still use these to rinse and reuse the yeast after 8 days of sitting in this state?
My intent is to use this in a new starter for the same exact beer. Or better yet - pitch directly - though I doubt there's enough viable yeast in this dump. I'd hope to get a good number of generations out of this yeast.
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_________________ painfully aware of his inexperience and the questions that come due to it...
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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alphakry wrote: | Can I still use these to rinse and reuse the yeast after 8 days of sitting in this state? |
8 days (assuming they were in the fridge) isn't that long. Most would probably say go for it.
Kal
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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osagher
Joined: 22 Oct 2018 Posts: 11
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Link Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:22 pm Post subject: Step Starters - partial better than full? |
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I've been scouring the interwebs for an answer to this question: when doing a starter for a large batch of a high gravity ale, I need to do a step starter. However, it seems from Brewer's Friend's calculator that it would be better to take PART of the first step and use it in the second step of the starter. For example, if I am projected to get 771 billion cells from step 1, and I throw all of that into a second 3.5 liter 1.036 SG starter, I will net 1092 billion cells. However, if I only take 100 billion cells from step 1, and throw them into that second step starter, I will net 671 (remaining from step 1) PLUS 603 billion (from step 2) = 1274 billion. Is that correct?
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: Step Starters - partial better than full? |
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osagher wrote: | I've been scouring the interwebs for an answer to this question: when doing a starter for a large batch of a high gravity ale, I need to do a step starter. However, it seems from Brewer's Friend's calculator that it would be better to take PART of the first step and use it in the second step of the starter. For example, if I am projected to get 771 billion cells from step 1, and I throw all of that into a second 3.5 liter 1.036 SG starter, I will net 1092 billion cells. However, if I only take 100 billion cells from step 1, and throw them into that second step starter, I will net 671 (remaining from step 1) PLUS 603 billion (from step 2) = 1274 billion. Is that correct? |
Hi! Not sure why you'd only take part of the cells from step 1 to use for step 2. That's taking a step backwards (pardon the pun) and throwing out all that work (and cells).
See the Hints/FAQ section of my guide - specifically the "My flask is too small!" section. It covers doing multiple steps. Good luck!
Kal
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My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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osagher
Joined: 22 Oct 2018 Posts: 11
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Link Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Step Starters - partial better than full? |
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kal wrote: | osagher wrote: | I've been scouring the interwebs for an answer to this question: when doing a starter for a large batch of a high gravity ale, I need to do a step starter. However, it seems from Brewer's Friend's calculator that it would be better to take PART of the first step and use it in the second step of the starter. For example, if I am projected to get 771 billion cells from step 1, and I throw all of that into a second 3.5 liter 1.036 SG starter, I will net 1092 billion cells. However, if I only take 100 billion cells from step 1, and throw them into that second step starter, I will net 671 (remaining from step 1) PLUS 603 billion (from step 2) = 1274 billion. Is that correct? |
Hi! Not sure why you'd only take part of the cells from step 1 to use for step 2. That's taking a step backwards (pardon the pun) and throwing out all that work (and cells).
See the Hints/FAQ section of my guide - specifically the "My flask is too small!" section. It covers doing multiple steps. Good luck!
Kal |
I probably wasn't clear in my initial question. I wouldn't throw out the rest of step 1. I would simply add the rest of the yeast from step 1 to the yeast resulting from step 2. My question still stands. True or not?
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osagher
Joined: 22 Oct 2018 Posts: 11
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Link Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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I just stumbled across another thread in the “Brewing Techniques” section of the Forum, called “Yeast Starter Step-ups?” which addresses this question and proves the point that if you haven’t found the answer to a brewing question, it’s probably because you haven’t looked hard enough. It looks like the answer to my question is “true”. Yeast propagation is dependent not only on the amount of sugar available but also on the number of yeast in solution. It looks like you will do better if you reduce the number of pitched yeast in the second step (up to a point). Your total yeast numbers from combining step 1 yield and step 2 yield will be higher if you do it that way than if you pitch the lot from step 1 into step 2.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Ah! I think I undersatnd now.
To use an example, say you need to make 1000B cells. It's better to make 500B in step 1 and then grow that 500B to 1000B in step 2, than make 900B in step one and then grow that 900B to 1000B in step 2. (You're not actually throwing any away). So you're right: Yeast multiplies until it reaches a certain density (number of cells per volume) so when doing that 900B -> 1000B variation they're almost already there. Better to do 500B -> 1000B.
Good luck!
Kal
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nickey
Joined: 07 Feb 2022 Posts: 31 Location: Kentucky
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Link Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Kal,
When doing a 2 step starter I don't understand why the need to decant between step 1 and 2. In my current case I have a 2 liter starter and a 3.5 liter second step. What I am planning to do is to since I have 2 liters on the stirrer, I added the calculated amount of DME to 1.5 liters and will pour directly into the 2 liters on the stir plate.
Is there anything wrong with doing this? I haven't done it yet so there is still time to not screw it up if there is a problem with it.
thanks
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11123 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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Link Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Hi nickey,
I think there's some terminology confusion here.
Starter size is the total size of the starter you need. You can't have a 2L starter and a 3.5L second step as you mention. The starter size is the total size of all the steps (if you have to multi-step because your flask is too small). So your starter "size" has to be at least 3.5L in your case but will be more I'm sure as your first step isn't 0L. Your starter size is the combined size of all your steps.
For example, when you go through my guide you first calculate your starter size. Doing so you may discover that for your beer you need a 6L starter, but you may only have a 5L flask. You can't fit 6L of wort in 5L flask so you need to multi-step it. Meaning you make some, then let it settle, decant, and then make more. You need to decant between steps because your flask isn't large enough. You can't (for example) make a 3L starter, then add another 3L, as your flask is only 5L in size.
What starter size do you require? What flask size do you have?
Kal
_________________ Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
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My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
Last edited by kal on Wed Feb 08, 2023 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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