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siestakey
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 Posts: 49
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Link Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:20 pm Post subject: temperatures not equalizing |
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Hi All! I finally got things set up and running and have done 2 brews so far on the new system. The first went so-so and the second went great! I do have one question if anyone has seen the same thing before. I have a cheapo thermometer that I did the "calibrating" with but I have since ordered a thermapen. The numbers I took then matched what the probes said, more or less. The largest "discrepancy" I had was the probe read 148, but the thermometer read 148.8. During my water test, for whatever reason, I noticed I'm losing 2 degrees when recirculating through the HERMS coil. I've set the HLT two degrees higher and the next water test went fine and the first brew went fine in that regard.
Now to get to my question - this happened over the weekend so I didn't have the thermapen yet, and these were the actual readings from the probes. The mash temp was at 153, I had the HLT set to 155 but it was actually at 157 and the element continued to fire. The temp of the HLT kept going up so I shut off the element to let things drop and manually turned it back on when it was at 155 to help keep the temp stable. I would think if the HLT temp is higher than what I set it to, the element would not fire until the temp dropped back down. Is it possible I have something not tuned or configured properly?
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
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Link Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like you were in manual mode. Can you confirm what mode you were in?
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siestakey
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 Posts: 49
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Link Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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I took a picture of the PID at the time, I don't have any lights on for AL1 AL2 or A-M. OUT is lit up (element is on). Is manual mode when A-M is lit?
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
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Link Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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siestakey wrote: | I took a picture of the PID at the time, I don't have any lights on for AL1 AL2 or A-M. OUT is lit up (element is on). Is manual mode when A-M is lit? |
Yes, A-M would be lit up if you were in manual mode. Did you auto calibrate the pid with a water test?
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siestakey
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 Posts: 49
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Link Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Are you referring to auto tuning at this link: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-setup
If so, yes I did do that, but re-reading that paragraph, it doesn't sound like it worked. I was going to do a kettle sour soon and perform an auto tune on the boil kettle pid, so maybe I will just do both again.
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
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Link Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, Auto tune is what I meant. Let's hope that fixes it.
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rcrabb22
Joined: 23 Dec 2010 Posts: 462 Location: Illinois
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Link Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:11 am Post subject: |
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You are not alone. I have consistently seen my PID fire the HLT element when the PID real temp display read it was at the set point. It will hold the HLT temperature at +3 over the set point. I have calibrated with a Thermapen. I have been through auto tune multiple times. I have reset the PID to factory settings and did the auto tune again. I replaced the PID with a new one from Auber. I did the autotune again. I switched the temperature probe between the HLT and the MLT. I have switched the probe HLT wire with both the MLT and BK probe wires. Nothing solves it. I have learned to live with it.
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
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Link Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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rcrabb22 wrote: | You are not alone. I have consistently seen my PID fire the HLT element when the PID real temp display read it was at the set point. It will hold the HLT temperature at +3 over the set point. I have calibrated with a Thermapen. I have been through auto tune multiple times. I have reset the PID to factory settings and did the auto tune again. I replaced the PID with a new one from Auber. I did the autotune again. I switched the temperature probe between the HLT and the MLT. I have switched the probe HLT wire with both the MLT and BK probe wires. Nothing solves it. I have learned to live with it. |
rcabb22,
I'm sure you are but I figured I would ask. Are you doing the auto tune with the Mash Tun filled with the correct amount of water in addition to the HLT? I find a lot of people (including me) forget to do it that way.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11121 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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siestakey
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 Posts: 49
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Link Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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dp Brewing Company wrote: | rcrabb22 wrote: | You are not alone. I have consistently seen my PID fire the HLT element when the PID real temp display read it was at the set point. It will hold the HLT temperature at +3 over the set point. I have calibrated with a Thermapen. I have been through auto tune multiple times. I have reset the PID to factory settings and did the auto tune again. I replaced the PID with a new one from Auber. I did the autotune again. I switched the temperature probe between the HLT and the MLT. I have switched the probe HLT wire with both the MLT and BK probe wires. Nothing solves it. I have learned to live with it. |
rcabb22,
I'm sure you are but I figured I would ask. Are you doing the auto tune with the Mash Tun filled with the correct amount of water in addition to the HLT? I find a lot of people (including me) forget to do it that way. |
When I performed the initial auto tune, I only filled up the HLT and recirculated in there. Should I have also filled up the Mash Tun and recirculated through the HERMS coil?
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
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Link Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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Correct. Otherwise you have 7+ additional gallons your not accounting for. Which could be the reason it overshoots.
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siestakey
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 Posts: 49
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Link Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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dp Brewing Company wrote: | Correct. Otherwise you have 7+ additional gallons your not accounting for. Which could be the reason it overshoots. |
OK - so I'm understanding this correctly, basically just follow the water volumes for the brew day, step by step but perform the auto tune while recirculating water in both the HLT and the HERMS coil, without any grain. In actual terms, about 7.47 gallons in the mash tun and the remainder in the HLT?
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
Working on: Nothing
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Link Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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siestakey wrote: | dp Brewing Company wrote: | Correct. Otherwise you have 7+ additional gallons your not accounting for. Which could be the reason it overshoots. |
OK - so I'm understanding this correctly, basically just follow the water volumes for the brew day, step by step but perform the auto tune while recirculating water in both the HLT and the HERMS coil, without any grain. In actual terms, about 7.47 gallons in the mash tun and the remainder in the HLT? |
Correct.
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rcrabb22
Joined: 23 Dec 2010 Posts: 462 Location: Illinois
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Link Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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dp Brewing Company wrote: | Correct. Otherwise you have 7+ additional gallons your not accounting for. Which could be the reason it overshoots. |
Wow! I did not. Six years with this system and I **THOUGHT** I knew how it worked.
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
Working on: Nothing
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Link Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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rcrabb22 wrote: | dp Brewing Company wrote: | Correct. Otherwise you have 7+ additional gallons your not accounting for. Which could be the reason it overshoots. |
Wow! I did not. Six years with this system and I **THOUGHT** I knew how it worked. |
haha.....well I hope this helps you fix your issues with the PID.
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rcrabb22
Joined: 23 Dec 2010 Posts: 462 Location: Illinois
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Link Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Ya know.... as I was setting up my system for an autotune with the MLT recirculation included I started thinking about the issue. The 3 degree overshoot is an annoyance and the PID was designed to avoid that. My bigger issue is after the overshoot the PID maintains the temperature 3 degrees above the set point. The PID continues to fire the heating element as needed to maintain the +3 degree differential. I do not understand why having the MLT recirculating liquid through the HERMS coil would rectify that.
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siestakey
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 Posts: 49
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Link Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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rcrabb22 wrote: | Ya know.... as I was setting up my system for an autotune with the MLT recirculation included I started thinking about the issue. The 3 degree overshoot is an annoyance and the PID was designed to avoid that. My bigger issue is after the overshoot the PID maintains the temperature 3 degrees above the set point. The PID continues to fire the heating element as needed to maintain the +3 degree differential. I do not understand why having the MLT recirculating liquid through the HERMS coil would rectify that. |
I was experiencing the same thing - except 2 degrees high. I am planning on doing the auto tune tonight and brewing this weekend and will report back.
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siestakey
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 Posts: 49
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Link Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:15 am Post subject: |
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I did the autotune tonight and then a water test. I still had to set the HLT 2 degrees higher than desired mash temp, but the temperatures were much more stable - i didn't have to flip things off or manually intervene at all, it kept the temperature stable the entire time and no overshooting.
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rcrabb22
Joined: 23 Dec 2010 Posts: 462 Location: Illinois
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Link Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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I too went through the autotune again and this is the result:
I = Intergral Time
P = Proportional Constant
D = Derivative Time
t = cycle time
Listed below are the values for the Parameters I,P,D,t the Factory Setting and After Auto tune
I 1000 200
P 500 440
D 120 11
t 2 6
The parameter that changed I didn't expect was t.
According to the Auber manual
Quote: | 4.6 Cycle time “t”
It is the time period (in seconds) that the controller uses to calculate its
output. e.g. When t=2, if the controller decides output should be 10%, the
heater will be on 0.2 second and off 1.8 seconds for every 2 seconds. Smaller
t values result in more precision control. For SSR output, t is set at the
minimum (2 seconds). For relay or contactor output, it should be set longer to
prevent contacts from wearing out too soon. Normally it is set to 20~ 4 0
seconds. |
The end result was the same as siestakey reported in his/her post.
I am still confused about the effect recirculation had on the whole process. If I was using a RIMS system instead of HERMS and using the HLT only to heat the water I would expect the PID to NOT overshoot and hold the water at the set point, not +3 above the set point.
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siestakey
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 Posts: 49
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Link Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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rcrabb22 wrote: |
I am still confused about the effect recirculation had on the whole process. If I was using a RIMS system instead of HERMS and using the HLT only to heat the water I would expect the PID to NOT overshoot and hold the water at the set point, not +3 above the set point. |
I am a little confused as well. I set the temp to 152 and when I got to 142, pumped 7.5 gallons into the MLT and began circulating and once temps got back to 142 began the auto tune. The HLT reached 152 much sooner than the MLT did and much of the auto tune time was spent bringing the MLT up to temp. I have to think that impacted how much the element has to fire to keep things stable.
However, with that said, the water test I performed after was drastically different than my brew days in regards to temperature stability (in a good way). I will check the other numbers you posted when I get home tonight and post them here for comparison.
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