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Yeast starter step-up?

 
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GLRRA47




Joined: 20 Dec 2015
Posts: 43
Location: Ohio


PostLink    Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 11:35 pm    Post subject: Yeast starter step-up? Reply with quote


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Just wondering if folks are doing a couple step-up yeast starters to hit the required amt. for a 12 gal. batch of wort, or simply starting off with the full size yeast starter as required by Beer Smith or other calculator. (I've always done a 1.3 L starter and then added the yeast produced to another 1.3 L batch of wort for the final yeast production. A single starter would be faster - especially when planning to brew the next day...
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You start with a single vial/smackpack of yeast. These typically have 100B cells when brand new.
You then make a starter with whatever flask size you have. The amount of wort you use will dictate how many cells you end up with. If your flask isn't big enough to hold that amount of wort to hit your target cell count, you'll have to let the yeast cells settle from the first starter and make a second one based on that to build up even further.

I use 5L flasks so for most beers a single step is all I need for my 10-12 gallon batches.

If your flasks are smaller, or your batch size is larger, or the gravity is higher (i.e. you need more cells) you may need to do 2 steps, or even 3.

All that matters is how many cells you end up with, not the number of steps. For example, if your flask is big enough/gravity is low enough/batch size is small enough, you only need a single step.

Check out my "HOW TO: Making a Yeast Starter" for more info on this: https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/making-a-yeast-starter

Good luck!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GLRRA47




Joined: 20 Dec 2015
Posts: 43
Location: Ohio


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have both 2000 ml and 5000 flasks - so I'm flexible. Had heard more yeast is produced with step-ups, but just curious of your take. One step is certainly less prep and time. Brewing an "American wheat" this morning using some experimental "purple" wheat that I acquired from a subject matter expert who is working with growers and a local university. Will be interesting to see what color - if any comes out. Thanks for the yeast info
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GLRRA47 wrote:
Had heard more yeast is produced with step-ups, but just curious of your take.

Interesting. I have not heard this myself. Do you have a source?

Kal

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rcrabb22




Joined: 23 Dec 2010
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PostLink    Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
GLRRA47 wrote:
Had heard more yeast is produced with step-ups, but just curious of your take.

Interesting. I have not heard this myself. Do you have a source?

Kal


The book "yeast The Practice Guide to Beer Fermentation" by Chris White with Jamil Zainasheff describes stepped starters starting on page 144 including the expected increase in propagation from different sized starters and using a stepped starter method.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! I'll give that a read!

Kal

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dp Brewing Company




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PostLink    Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was my favorite book of the series!
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itsnotrequired




Joined: 15 Sep 2015
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Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

at the homebrew scale, stepping up a starter is typically done because of vessel size limitation. making a starter for a high-gravity brew will certainly take more yeast that a low-gravity brew but eventually, you will reach your vessel size limit. same deal if using older yeast (less viability) or needing a greater pitching rate (e.g. a lager). if your biggest vessel is 1.5 liters, well, you won't be able to make anything larger than 1.5 liters without steps. it is true that you can only make a starter so big, regardless of starter vessel size but this doesn't start kicking in until a starter size of 20 liters or greater. to put it another way, you are basically getting zero additional grow going from, say, a 20 liter starter to a 60 liter starter. you're just wasting wort at that point, the yeast can't eat any more. this is where a stepped starter can come into play but note the huge volumes, you just aren't going to see this on the homebrew scale (unless you are brewing full barrels or something like that).

smaller starters do have greater growth rates compared to larger. going from 1 liter to 2 liter (doubling the size) will add another 150 billion cells or so but going from a 2 liter to a 4 liter (doubling) will only result in about another 75 billion cells. this decrease in growth vs starter size decreases until at around 20 liters when it levels off.

so if you have a 5 liter flask, you should be able to make just about anything for a 5 gal batch, including very high gravity ales (1.100+) or regular lagers, assuming relatively fresh yeast. there should not be a need for any step ups. i do ten gallon batches and have two 5 liter flasks. i've never had to build up a starter and that includes a 1.115 barley wine and a 1.060 lager.
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David_H




Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Savannah, GA

Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my two cents on the topic, FWIW
This is based on research by Kai Troester.
http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2012/11/03/estimating-yeast-growth/
http://braukaiser.com/documents/Troester_NHC_2013_Step_Up_Your_Starter.pdf [ EDIT add additional link ]
The link will get you to a basic article, you will need to dig deeper into his site to find more of the back story.

In his research, he uses yeast growth per gram of sugar (DME), not on wort volume. Sort of the same because you want a wort in the 1.036 to 1.040 SG range which will define a specific amount of sugar.

In short, 1 gm of DME (in Wort) will support 2 Billion yeast cells.
If you start with 2B cells you will end up with 2B cells, ie no growth.
If you start with .1B cells you will end up with 2B cells, ie LOTS OF GROWTH.
There are limits however, if you started with 1 cell in theory it would reproduce until you have the 2B, but not really.

The take away is this:
1 liter of wort at 1.036 (9P) is approximately 100 grams DME in 1 Liter of water.
therefore this volume of wort will support 2B/g x 100g = 200B cells.
If you decant and put fresh wort on top of the entire yeast cake you will not get any new growth, so if you want to step up pour 1/2 to 3/4 of the yeast into another container and then add new wort to the 1/4 yeast left, this way you will get new growth.

Just my 2 cents.

David

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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would also add that you're not supposed to propagate a yeast batch by more than 10 X by volume, which is another reason to do step starters.

For example: If you use one Wyeast smack pack that has 125 mL of yeast and wort, you're not supposed to create a starter larger than 1250 mL. This ratio of yeast to wort creates optimal yeast growth and health. If you put that 125 mL smack pack in 10000 mL of wort, you of course will make more yeast than you started with - but that's not the healthiest or most economical way to do it. itsnotrequired and David_H both touched on applicable concepts on how that's not always productive or time/cost effective.

I personally usually use two smack packs in a 4000 mL flask - mostly to help prevent boil-overs. 125 mL X 2 = 250 mL of yeast X 10 = 2500 mL finished volume. So I mix 250 g of DME into 2250 mL of water (2500 mL finished volume minus 250 mL of smack pack volume). Once it's boiled and cooled, I add the two smack packs and end up with 2500 mL of starter. This method can be applied to 1 smack pack or 5 which will dictate flask size. It is possible with high gravity beers and lagers that you'll want to do multiple steps to avoid buying 7 smack packs. In that case I'd use a 2000 ml flask to bump it once for 48 to 72 hrs, and then settle out the yeast, pour off excess used wort, and then add to a fresh starter in a larger flask.

I started doing yeast counting and viability testing using a microscope, hemocytometer, and Methylene Violet and have found that for every batch I've made since doing an actual count, doing a 2500 mL starter with two smack packs is overkill for a standard 12 gallon batch of regular ale. I'm just throwing this out there as a number, but I would say that I'm only using 1/3 to 1/2 of the yeast slurry volume I'm producing when I pitch based on cell count. For ales you want to pitch 0.75 to 1 million cells/ mL/ degree Plato of finished beer, and for lagers and high gravity beers you want 1.5 million cells/ mL/ degree Plato. (Plato is basically SG divided by 4 - or 1.040 = 10 'P). http://betatestbrewing.com/pages/plato_to_sg.html

I've also found that different yeasts can definitely propagate differently. Using the same wort volumes, starting gravity, two smack packs and a settled yeast volume of 1000 mL I've pitched anywhere from only 150 mL of yeast slurry to 500 mL of slurry of a different yeast. The calculator on BeerSmith has been a good guide (and is based on the pitch rate calculation above), but has not been very accurate to true pitch count in my experience. BeerSmith once suggested I use 7 smack packs for a RIS even with a starter and a stir plate. I used 4 smack packs in a starter as above and only pitched half of it based on cell count... and the beer is delicious.

The problem is that you don't really know how much you're pitching unless you actually count it. However, as a general rule of thumb I would say that 1 yeast vial/ smack pack in an appropriate starter is sufficient for most 12 gallon ale batches, and 2 or 3 packs in a starter is probably sufficient for big beers and lagers.
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