50 amp, 30+ gallon/back to back (switched) setup

[dendrophobe]

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I'm slowly planning my control panel build, and think that I've settled on a 50 amp design. However, I don't really want to have to choose between the 30+ gallon setup and the back to back setup.

Has anyone combined these ideas? I don't want to do them both at once, requiring 100 amps, but I'm thinking of a switched setup, where I can select either multiple elements per kettle or back to back, depending on my needs. I'd want it done so that it's impossible to ask for more than two elements to be on at a time, so that I don't exceed 50 amps.

Aside from the trouble of figuring out the wiring logic, can anyone think of a reason that this shouldn't be done? Or has anyone done it, and want to share their setup? I searched, but haven't been able to find anything thus far.

[dendrophobe]

I came up with a simplified schematic to test the logic. I used Yenka to simulate the setup, using lights as the heating elements, and everything appears to work as intended. Now that the logic bit seems to have worked, I'll have to go through and plan things out properly with the SSRs and whatnot. If I can get the dimensions of all of the components, I might even make a model of the panel in CATIA so I can make sure the additional parts fit and plan the layout.

If anybody has any ideas or concerns, I'd love to hear them!

[kkroeker]

I’m interested in what you come up with. I like the idea of having both options in one box. Reasons are once the boil is going on a barrel batch I could switch back to HLT and get more water heating for a back to back. I like the option for flexibility.

[dp Brewing Company]

Interesting concept. I've seen something similar on commercial setups but never on this scale.

[Tungsten]

I don't have a ton of electrical knowledge but I think your diagram would work. But why wouldn't you just use two 3-way switches to control all 4 elements and eliminate the B2B vs 30-gallon switch? The wiring isn't much different that way.

My panel is "halfway" there. I'll never do a batch higher than 10 gallons, but I wanted something similar. I wanted the ability to do back-to-back batches and figured I'd also allow my system to heat water faster for a "normal" batch. So I've got two elements (5500W) tied together on a 3-way switch, similar to the standard TEB panel. I've also got another element in the HLT that is on a standard 2-way switch. I don't see any reason why you can't make that one another 3-way switch.

How to lay out switches/lights on a panel... I'm not sure. But that's the easy part.

[dendrophobe]

Your way would definitely work, no question. The reason I did it this way was mainly so that I could select a "main" heating element in each kettle, and always know which was turned on at a given moment. Otherwise I'd have to remember which element corresponded with which three-way switch. As with Kal's initial design, I wanted to minimize mistakes that could be made. If, for example, I only have one heating element hooked up in my boil kettle but two in the HLT, I don't want to have to remember which switch to turn which way.

As for the switch wiring, I plan to replace the key switch with the three-way B2B/Off/30 gal switch, and then have 2-way switches and lights at the bottom middle, where the "Electric Brewery" tag normally goes. It all fits pretty nicely, and keeps the general aesthetic and layout of Kal's panel. I haven't worked out contactor placement yet though.

[Tungsten]

Ah ok - that reasoning makes sense. I was under the assumption that you would always have all 4 elements connected... just maybe not in use. Either way you go, you either have to make sure that the number of elements connected equals the "mode" you have the control panel in, or know what elements correspond to which switches.

The contactor placement can definitely be problematic. I have some very tight areas on my backplate that actually led me to switching more components than I originally planned on to DIN rail style.

[kal]

[kal]

[dp Brewing Company]

I agree with what Kal is saying. For me with only doing 10-15 gallon batches I chose the B2B. I've actually used it a couple times. Mainly when I was getting low on beer and needed to get a few batches in the fermentors.

[dendrophobe]

You raise valid points, and I've actually gone back and forth on this very topic. In all likelihood, I'd be perfectly happy with the normal 30 amp setup, and would never look back.

But I'm an engineer. So nothing is ever quite enough, and I need to fiddle with it!

In all seriousness though, it's mostly about future-proofing, or as Kal said, being all-inclusive. I doubt I'll ever do anything larger than 10 gallon batches, but having the extra element in the HLT to bring things up to temp faster would be nice. And if I'm going to wire for that, I might as well wire for 30+ gallons, as it's not much harder. And who knows, maybe in 20 years I'll decide I have a need to brew that much. A few friends and I do occasionally brew multiple batches on the same day, either concurrently or back to back, just because it can be difficult to set up brew days - when we manage it, we like to take advantage as best we can. With the ease of brewing on the electric brewery, having multiple sets of hands won't be as important, but the social aspect is - and if I'm brewing in my basement, I wouldn't want to make my friends brew out on the deck with their gas burners, as that kind of defeats the purpose.

Is any of it necessary? Not at all. And I'm pretty well split on whether to proceed this way or just build a standard panel and call it a day. But if nothing else, it's a fun problem to think about!

[dp Brewing Company]

I hope you build this control panel dendrophobe! I want to see what it looks like. I agree with you about wanting to "fiddle" with things. I think that is half the fun but this hobby.

[kal]

[kal]