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Using old 3 prong outlet. How to tie in 120 and GFCI?

 
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Davidr236




Joined: 04 Nov 2017
Posts: 3



PostLink    Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:39 am    Post subject: Using old 3 prong outlet. How to tie in 120 and GFCI? Reply with quote


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Hey all. Lonnngggg time lurker, first time poster. Finally starting to get my basement Brewery off the ground and just have one obstacle. Currently have 240 in the basement with an old three prong outlet. Took the plate off and confirmed I only have 3 wires. Black, white, and bare. Bummer. I read a really confusing thread on another popular homebrew site and now I'm more confused. It was mentioned that for GFCI to use a spa panel, which I planned on doing anyway, and wire it so the standard 4 wires would be coming out of the output. If I read correctly, this would allow me to run 120 as well. I would rather not wire it all 240 because I do not plan on being in my current house forever. Hot debate about whether this was up to code or not.

Not sure how much an electrician would cost to run new wires which sounds like the easiest. Anyone have experience in that department

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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to the forum David!

If you plan on eventually moving you could always do 240V only at the new place too, the biggest caveat however is the pumps: You'd have to use 240V pumps, which can be harder to find in North America.

Cost to have an electrician run a 4-wire (2 hot, 1 neutral, 1 ground) will vary depending on the length of the run, how easy it is to do, and other factors. What one person paid unfortunately has little to no bearing on what someone else may need to pay as the situations can be wildly different. So I wouldn't look to what others paid as that could be misleading. Best to talk to a couple of electricians and get quotes.

Good luck!

Kal

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Davidr236




Joined: 04 Nov 2017
Posts: 3



PostLink    Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

240 at the future new place too... Duh. I feel dumb now haha. Thanks for the reply Kal. Thanks for this site! Guess I'll start the search for 240 parts
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can sell you a 240V only control panel kit for you to assemble if you are interested. Cost of 240V kits is the same as our regular kits. See here for pricing: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel

An option to have the enclosure pre-punched and heatsink tapped is also available. Highly recommended if you want to save time/effort and have everything come out nice and straight. Requires less tools and no painting.

Building instructions for a 240V only 30A panel is here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25393

If interested you may place the order directly through our website and indicate in the comments that you’d like 240V parts in your control panel kit, or if easier simply send us a follow-up email after ordering indicating that you’d like only 240V parts and we’ll make sure to change your order. Note that our heating elements and temperature probes work with 240V only control panels too - there is no difference.

One slight difference in our 240V kits that I have to point out is that we supply two all-in-one combination of transformers and AC/DC converters (similar to what we use in the pre-assembled panels) for you so that you don’t have to source your own doorbell transformers as 240V versions are not items we can find here. These units replace the separate power supplies and transformers. They're very simple to hook up, simpler than our 'normal' kits actually: There’s a 2-wire AC input and then a 2-wire DC output. An adjustable control sets the outlet voltage. They are DIN mount (a different type of mounting where a rail is used) so we’d include a small piece of DIN rail and two end stops.

Purchasing your parts directly from us has the following advantages:

- Save money: Our combined price is LOWER than purchasing the parts yourself and paying for shipping from over a dozen suppliers as we purchase in bulk.
- Save time: No need to order the hundreds of parts yourself from the various suppliers. Click once, pay once!
- Get the right parts: No risk of ordering the wrong part by mistake, no risk of the wrong part being sent by the supplier.
- Parts that are guaranteed to work: We individually test every single part as they come in before they are included in our kits.
- Get better quality parts: Part quality can vary depending on the manufacturer. After years of trying different components to filter out the less desirable ones, we believe that the parts we supply are higher than average quality. Yes, these parts are more expensive but you get what you pay for.
- Custom enclosure with less work: Our kit enclosures are custom made for us and result in less work for you. There is no need to move the ground post, no need to seal and sand the bottom cable plate, and no need to prime and paint as the enclosure is already professionally powder coated with an industrial flat textured charcoal/black finish. Also available is an optional upgrade to have the enclosure door, top and bottom pre-punched along with the heat sink tapped. (The back plate is not drilled or tapped, allowing you to lay out your parts as you see fit).

Good luck!

Kal

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We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
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itsnotrequired




Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 177
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

david, don't know your location but commentary below is base don the nec.

you can use a 240v two-wire circuit with a gfci, you do not need a neutral for proper gfci operation (when i say 'two-wire' i mean two hots and a ground, no neutral). that being said, you will be 'stuck' with only 240v, no 120v. as kal mentions, using 240v pumps, indicating lights, etc. will allow you to run the system without a neutral. assuming conductor size, breaker rating, etc. is in order, it would be a code-complaint installation.

what is NOT code compliant is using that bare conductor (ground) as a neutral, to derive 120v. you could rig it up to work with a gfci but that wouldn't be complaint either. bottom line, don't do it.

you do have one minor violation in your setup, the white conductor. white is to be used for neutral (grounded) conductors, not phase (hot) conductors. this is simply a labeling violation, not some inherent danger (unless someone grabs it thinking it is grounded).
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Davidr236




Joined: 04 Nov 2017
Posts: 3



PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I have decided to go with the all 240 route as the parts are basically the same price minus the pumps. Not worth the risk trying to get 120.

Kal, looking to piece together the system as funds allow or I would definitely get your kit. I will use your Amazon affiliate links when possible though, and buy some parts from your store. Appreciate you posting all this information for free.

The home inspection did show the labeling problem so I knew ahead of time. Thanks for the reply!
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Davidr236 wrote:
Kal, looking to piece together the system as funds allow or I would definitely get your kit. I will use your Amazon affiliate links when possible though, and buy some parts from your store. Appreciate you posting all this information for free.

If you need any other parts or want to break up the kit purchase into 2-3 'batches' let us know. We can sell you any of the parts. (We're actually in the process of moving to a new platform to allow simpler a la cart ordering like this).

Good luck!

Kal

_________________
Our new shop with over 150 new products: shop.TheElectricBrewery.com
We ship worldwide and support our products and customers for life.
Purchasing through our affiliate links helps support our site at no extra cost to you. We thank you!
My basement/bar/brewery build 2.0
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View user's photo album (21 photos)
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