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Secondary in Corny?

 
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jbrace1




Joined: 21 Feb 2014
Posts: 42
Location: Minnetonka

Drinking: Saison de Sol, Summer Noon, Labor Day Pale Ale, Cold Press Coffee


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:52 pm    Post subject: Secondary in Corny? Reply with quote


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The good news is I have my brewery up and running with the first batch (Electric Pale Ale-YUM) almost gone and my second batch (a Blue Moon Clone) in the fermenter. The bad new is I'm impatient and I only have one fermenter (a Stout 14.5 gal conical with Peltier chips and a ferm-wrap).

My question is: Is it safe (from an infection standpoint), useful, and logical to do secondary fermentation in a corny kegs solely to free up primary fermenter space? If I was not in a rush to get started on my next batches (Belgian Golden Stong, Imperial Stout, another Electric PA) this would not be an issue as I would just secondary in my conical.

As far as temp control in secondary I have my basement at 67F and conditioning fridge at 34F.

Any input appreciated.

Thanks,
Jeff
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I (and many others) don't recommend secondary fermentation for any beer.

Secondary fermentation (when beer is taken off active yeast) is a throwback to the day when yeast quality was horrible and you were supposed to rack into a secondary at high krauzen because the yeast would through off all sorts of nasties that were best left behind.

Today, I recommend fermenting until the yeast has done its job and then leaving a while longer to let it clean up after itself. Pulling it off early will only harm the beer.

For more info see the "Ferment & Package" section of our BREW DAY STEP BY STEP article here:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step?page=11

If you mean to use a corny as a clarifying (brite) tank then there's no reason why you can't do that. Just make sure that fermentation is 100% done otherwise pressure can build up.

jbrace1 wrote:
If I was not in a rush to get started on my next batches (Belgian Golden Stong, Imperial Stout, another Electric PA) this would not be an issue as I would just secondary in my conical.

It wouldn't be a secondary then - it would just be a longer primary fermentation. Wink

Kal

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jbrace1




Joined: 21 Feb 2014
Posts: 42
Location: Minnetonka

Drinking: Saison de Sol, Summer Noon, Labor Day Pale Ale, Cold Press Coffee


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal. Its the 'letting the yeast clean up after itself' that I was considering secondary fermentation. So it sounds like I should leave it in the fermenter for this clean up process, not move it to kegs. Makes sense.

Jeff
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jbrace1 wrote:
Thanks Kal. Its the 'letting the yeast clean up after itself' that I was considering secondary fermentation. So it sounds like I should leave it in the fermenter for this clean up process, not move it to kegs. Makes sense.

Correct. If you rack the beer to another vessel most of the yeast stays behind. It can't clean up what it doesn't have access to.

Kal

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kwdriver




Joined: 19 Jan 2013
Posts: 113
Location: Eagle, CO

Drinking: Munich Helles, Schwarzbier

Working on: Guinness clone, Vienna Lager


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal what's your guideline for "letting the yeast clean up after itself?" Are you just waiting a few days after the gravity hasn't changed / stopped bubbling or is there more to it?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It really depends on the beer/yeast and what the gravity's at. If the gravity's near where you expect it to end and it hasn't changed for 3-5 days or even up to a week, it's most likely done and 'cleaned up' (if required). If you think it's done there's really no harm in leaving most beers up to one week, though it depends on the situation. It's hard to give one "set" of rules as it really depends on beer/yeast/temp/etc. None of this is hard and fast rules too. Not like you're going to ruin something by leaving it an extra few days. The most common problem is the opposite: Trying to go too fast. Fermenting (or beer brewing in general) is one of the few hobbies where you are often rewarded for being a slacker. Wink

Some fast fermenting ale yeasts will rip through the beer in only a few days and not really require any sort of 'clean up period'. A diacetyl rest is one such 'clean up' that may be required with lagers. The process is simply to raise the fermentation temperature from lager temperatures (50-55F) to 65-68F for a two day period near the close of the fermentation. Usually the diacetyl rest is begun when the beer is 2 to 5 specific gravity points away from the target terminal gravity.

Never go by bubbling as that's not necessarily fermentation. For example, I tend to let the temp rise as I get near the end of fermentation and when the beer warms up, CO2 comes out of solution.

Cheers!

Kal

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kwdriver




Joined: 19 Jan 2013
Posts: 113
Location: Eagle, CO

Drinking: Munich Helles, Schwarzbier

Working on: Guinness clone, Vienna Lager


PostLink    Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotcha. Just making sure I wasn't missing something. In the past I've done the diacetyl rests when the beers were within ~5 points of finishing out and then waited 3-5 days before transferring into a corny, adding gelatin and letting the beer condition for a month or two at near freezing.

I'm changing my process a little now that I have a glycol chiller cooling my fermenters instead of cold plates. Following the diacetyl rest I'll cold crash in the primary to near freezing, add gelatin and wait a few days before transferring the good stuff to cornys for further conditioning.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cam across a great post from someone else that I thought would fit well here as I agree 100%. Here’s a cut and paste:

Quote:
the aim of keeping a coolish temp during the early stage of fermentation is to prevent the production of a lot of undesirable fermentation byproducts like higher alcohols (hot, boozy, headachey) and esters (inappropriately fruity). At cooler temps yeast tend to develop less of these. These are mostly produced in the first 3 days of fermentation. The yeast are more likely to quit working and drop out sooner at lower temps and this can have it's own set of undesirable effects because the yeast don't finish cleaning up some byproducts that they would if they were active longer. Diecetyl (fake butter smell taste, slick/oily mouthfeel) is a common one of these as is acetaldehyde (sharp green apple).

By raising the temp at the end of fermentation you encourage the yeast to finish cleaning up and really fully attenuate by making them more active and because you kept it cool during the reproductive phase they didn't produce fusel alcohols or too many esters. so you end up with a really clean flavor and aroma. Some yeast strains are more prone to dropping out early and some will stall and not finish fermenting the available sugars if kept too cold.


Usually I try to indicate a fermentation/temp schedule in my recipes for this exact reason (or at least I think I do).

Kal

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rivetcatcher




Joined: 21 Apr 2016
Posts: 132
Location: Thailand

Drinking: Way Out Wheat - Mindcircus

Working on: Zombie Dust


PostLink    Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
It really depends on the beer/yeast and what the gravity's at. If the gravity's near where you expect it to end and it hasn't changed for 3-5 days or even up to a week, it's most likely done and 'cleaned up' (if required). If you think it's done there's really no harm in leaving most beers up to one week, though it depends on the situation. It's hard to give one "set" of rules as it really depends on beer/yeast/temp/etc. None of this is hard and fast rules too. Not like you're going to ruin something by leaving it an extra few days. The most common problem is the opposite: Trying to go too fast. Fermenting (or beer brewing in general) is one of the few hobbies where you are often rewarded for being a slacker. Wink


I’ve left beer in primary for 4 weeks after fermentation had finished due to unexpected work commitments. It was a beer I had made several times and the end result...... absolutely no noticeable difference.

Rivet Very Happy
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