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Glycol lines on Tap Side

 
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fseider



Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 156
Location: Two Naked Frogs Brewery; Reading, PA (USA); Interests: Beer, Frogs, Steampunk, Being Naked


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:27 pm    Post subject: Glycol lines on Tap Side Reply with quote


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I am having a heck of a time understanding how a glycol/coolant line looks on the tap side. By this I mean you have your coolant coming from your glycol unit in a bundle along with your beer lines. The beer lines eventually end up connected to the taps of course. But what does the gylcol side then look like? Is it a simple return, is it wrapped around the tap stem in some manner, or some other means of keeping the tap as cold as possible? The glycol obviously returns back, but I'm trying to understand how it all looks on the tap side. Any links to pics would be worth a gazillion or so words. (I just can't find what I'm looking for, so pardon me if I'm overlooking my searches.)

Thanks in advance!

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itsnotrequired



Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 169
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

check out the diagram at the bottom of the page in the link below:

http://www.micromatic.com/what-glycol-cooled-beer-dispensing-system?affId=70238

the supply and return glycol lines are connected together inside the tower. if you buy a pre-fabricated tower, all those connections are made for you inside the tower and the supply/return lines stick out the bottom. you hook up your lines at home to those pipes. you can see it in that diagram as well.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10288
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, London Pride, Weizen, Citra DIPA, Dubbel, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Kolsch


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Normally the chilling lines are connected to the shanks. I've seen copper adapters (can't seem to find them now) that screw on to regular shanks where the glycol or whatever coolant flows through.

In my first tap setup about 10 years ago I wrapped copper tubing around the shanks and then insulated:



This is harder to do than it looks. You don't want to kink the copper tubing. Think really small HERMS coil. Wink

A second 25-40' (don't remember) copper coil was placed in an adjacent fridge freezer (at 0F) pressed against the cooling plate and coolant pumped continuously. It's chilled so well that it actually causes condensation on the taps in the summer when the air is more humid (if the house AC was off):



When I redid my new tap setup for my current basement I went with a commercial tower where everything's build in. I have no idea how it works inside but it's probably got copper blocks around the shanks and the coolant flows through. All I see are the two copper glycol lines sticking out the bottom of the tower along with the stainless product lines:





Complete details on how this is setup in these posts:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=290842#290842
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=295672#295672

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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fseider



Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 156
Location: Two Naked Frogs Brewery; Reading, PA (USA); Interests: Beer, Frogs, Steampunk, Being Naked


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perfect! Exactly what I needed gentlemen. Appreciate the quick response.
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Two Naked Frogs Brewery, Winery, & Meadery
Reading, PA
"What's in your goblet?!"
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Model 30A; SN 0130
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jonymac



Joined: 18 Dec 2014
Posts: 138



PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal - with our tower setups - do you find you get foaming at the taps as your keg draws down? I am wondering if there is still a temperature differential that may be causing this. Cant remember if you were using a glycol/water mix with aquarium pump in the keezer as I am. First glass is really foamy.

Also wondering if the pour rate is a bit high causing foaming given we have only about 8' of low resistance bevseal type line from the tap to the keg. Did you add any restriction to the micromatic beer lines to create resistance? I have added one Perlick flow control tap head to see how this affects the pour. In another keg I added a swizzle stick to the diptube to restrict flow to keep carbonation from coming out of solution.

Keep your IPAs at about 10 PSI?

i would be interested to see you post a video pouring a first beer after the tap has sat 24 hours to see if it pours like mine.

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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, London Pride, Weizen, Citra DIPA, Dubbel, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Kolsch


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonymac wrote:
Kal - with our tower setups - do you find you get foaming at the taps as your keg draws down?

When I use a tap for the first time a while, I get about 4 ounces that comes out normally, then a little "gurgle" for a split second that creates a bit of foam (nothing much), then a straight normal pour again. Almost as if somewhere in the 15 foot line the CO2 has come out of solution and 'pooled' maybe? Not sure. It hasn't bothered me or caused any concerns so I haven't really looked into it. Only happens on the first pour of the evening ...

Quote:
Cant remember if you were using a glycol/water mix with aquarium pump in the keezer as I am.

Yup.

Quote:
Also wondering if the pour rate is a bit high causing foaming given we have only about 8' of low resistance bevseal type line from the tap to the keg.

I've got about 15' of 0.25" ID hose.

Quote:
Did you add any restriction to the micromatic beer lines to create resistance?

Nope!

Quote:
Keep your IPAs at about 10 PSI?

A touch lower usually, around 7-8 PSI since my keezer's at around 34F. Remember that that's a bit of a loaded question, since what PSI you use is related what carbonation level you want (volumes of CO2) which is temperature dependant. The colder you keep the beer, the lower you need to set the PSI to get the same carb level:



I have a higher pressure regulator (around 12-14 PSI) that I use for higher carbed beers like wheat beers, Belgians, etc.

Quote:
i would be interested to see you post a video pouring a first beer after the tap has sat 24 hours to see if it pours like mine.

I try and remember to catch something... next time I'm thirsty. Wink

Kal

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tkdjim



Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 54
Location: Derby, Kansas

Drinking: Scotch Ale

Working on: Moose Druel


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal,

It just came to me looking at the Carb Chart...
Are the values based on a particular beer line ID ?
I see you have .250 ID line in your Keezer.

I bought some Beer Line from More Beer and it is .250 OD with .187 ID
I have installed 10 foot lines to my taps. I haven't finished my Keezer build yet but I am wondering if I need to interpolate for the difference in the line I.D.'s

Any thoughts?
tkdjim
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10288
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, London Pride, Weizen, Citra DIPA, Dubbel, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Kolsch


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tkdjim wrote:
It just came to me looking at the Carb Chart...
Are the values based on a particular beer line ID ?

No. How carbonated a beer gets (the volumes of CO2 you want) is based on temperature and pressure only.

There are also calculators available that tell you how long and what diameter the line should be to get a 'balanced' setup such that your flow isn't too fast (foaming) or too slow (takes too long) but I find you'll get a brain aneurysm trying to make sense of them... For home use we have relatively short lines and Micromatic recommends 0.25" ID for anything under 50'. I find that works fine for me. My keezer lines are about 16-17' long while my kegerator is only about 4-5'. Both use the same 0.25" ID stuff. The kegerator pours a bit faster but both are fine. I'm more concerned about how carbonated the beer is, not how long it takes me to pour a pint (since I'm not a commercial bar pouring 1000 beers/hour).

Quote:
I bought some Beer Line from More Beer and it is .250 OD with .187 ID
I have installed 10 foot lines to my taps. I haven't finished my Keezer build yet but I am wondering if I need to interpolate for the difference in the line I.D.'s

If you already have it I'd just try it out and see how it goes. At a certain point if you find it's pouring too slow you can turn up the PSI, but then you may find the beer getting overcarb'ed.

Good luck!

Kal

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tkdjim



Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 54
Location: Derby, Kansas

Drinking: Scotch Ale

Working on: Moose Druel


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, Thanks Kal...

Yes I got on the Calculator and that's how I came up with the 10 foot line length but after i get things rolling I can always shorten up fairly easily. I didn't think line size had much if anything to do with the Carb Chart since there was no notation for it. But I thought I would ask anyway.

Thanks again!
tkdjim
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