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mjo2125
Joined: 27 Feb 2017
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Location: Dayton, OH
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 Link Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:02 am Post subject: Heating Element Install |
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Kal,
I noticed on your boil kettle photo it appears that after you fished the heating element through the opening, you widened the gap between the ends of the heating element at the base. Was this done to distribute heat?
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kal
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dp Brewing Company
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| Link Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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But it does help even the heating, or at least in my opinion it does.
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kal
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| Link Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see how it would make a difference I'm afraid - when boiling there's a violent rolling action such that the wort is mixed continuously.
Kal
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013
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Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
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| Link Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | I don't see how it would make a difference I'm afraid - when boiling there's a violent rolling action such that the wort is mixed continuously.
Kal |
Think about it this way. If you had two elements that are 5500 watt elements. One is 13" long and one is 5" long. Which do you think will bring a 14" diameter pot to a boil faster?
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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| Link Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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The same. As they put out the same power. One will simply be higher density (more watts per square inch). Both are 100% submerged so both put 5500w of power into the surrounding liquid. The area difference between the two is negligible in relation to the volume of liquid.
Kal
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mjo2125
Joined: 27 Feb 2017
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Location: Dayton, OH
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| Link Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| kal wrote: | I don't see how it would make a difference I'm afraid - when boiling there's a violent rolling action such that the wort is mixed continuously.
Kal |
Kal, your comment got me thinking (...that's a dangerous proposition in itself...). Kettle manufacturer's are always marketing their tri-clad kettles as a way to evenly distribute heat along the bottom (for propane fired kettles). The fact that a roiling boil evenly distributes heat would make their claims of the benefits of tri-clad bottoms all hype. Why not save dollars and just buy a non-clad kettle? Same for ULWD elements...
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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| Link Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| mjo2125 wrote: | | Kal, your comment got me thinking (...that's a dangerous proposition in itself...). Kettle manufacturer's are always marketing their tri-clad kettles as a way to evenly distribute heat along the bottom (for propane fired kettles). The fact that a roiling boil evenly distributes heat would make their claims of the benefits of tri-clad bottoms all hype. Why not save dollars and just buy a non-clad kettle? Same for ULWD elements... |
No, that's completely different.
The heat put out by a gas burner is incredibly hot, many orders of magnitude higher than an electric heating element. The flame on a gas stove top is over 3500F. An electric stove element is about 1/10th that.
With typical cooking pots you want a heavy clad bottom to help disperse the heat and avoid scorching as often the liquid you're heating/boiling is much thicker (ex: spaghetti sauce) and does not move through convection. When boiling very thin liquids like wort (the sugary water that eventually becomes beer), this is a non-issue as the wort is in constant movement.
For brewing a non-clad bottom is indeed useless in most cases, even with gas. That's why Blichmann Boilermaker kettles (designed originally for gas burners) do not have clad bottoms. They're used by tens of thousands of brewers with gas burners. So they are indeed useless for gas and electric setups. A clad bottom made from something other than stainless can be useful on a brew kettle if you're heating with induction however. Or in some cases a clad bottom can help make the bottom lie flat if you have a really poorly made (cheap) kettle.
For more information, see my kettles article as to why clad isn't any use with an electric setup: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/kettles-overview
They just adds cost and weight.
Now all this said, all this has little or nothing to do with how heat is absorbed by something like a heating element that is within the liquid. That's completely different.
Kal
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11123
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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| Link Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| mjo2125 wrote: | | Same for ULWD elements... |
Most will say that ULWD elements are not required for brewing, that you will not scorch your wort with a non-ULWD element. I tend to agree that it's really hard to scorch or caramelize the wort (within reason) and it's what I mention in my build instructions. To quote:
| Quote: | | Is ULWD really required however? In discussions with many other electric brewers who use 'standard' density electric elements, the whole idea of scorching or caramelization seems to be mostly Internet folklore. We haven't come across one concrete example where this has happened, but we feel it's better to be safe than sorry, especially considering that the cost of ULWD elements is minimal compared to 'standard' elements. |
This is not always true however if you have 'stuff' in your wort like possible flour in suspension. The more you can spread out the heat, the less likely you are to scorch as you have less heat per square inch.
I mention ULWD as being more useful as it adds a safety element that the element will not break instantaneously if fired "dry" (not immersed in water) by accident:
| Quote: | | There is however one very good reason to use ULWD elements over regular elements: They won't break as easily if fired up "dry" (not immersed in water). When a regular element is fired up "dry" the element will pop fairly quickly (usually before you notice your mistake!) as there is no water to dissipate the heat. While nobody means to fire up an element like this, mistakes do happen. Using ULWD elements provides you with a little bit of insurance against these human errors. Popping an element is about the last thing you want given that you've likely already milled your grain and have everything ready to go. |
See: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/heating-elements
But again, this has nothing to do with heating times.
Kal
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mjo2125
Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH
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| Link Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:21 am Post subject: |
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perhaps the critical phase is not the boil itself, but the state of the system just before the boil when the liquid isn't moving...
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11123
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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mjo2125
Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 248
Location: Dayton, OH
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| Link Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Kal,
in avoiding creating conditions (stationary "wort" plus high temp) that may lead to scorching - but as you indicated, it's probably folklore.
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