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Bubbles in the MLT out hose?
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jphussey




Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 171



PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Sorry, and one last question:

Does the speed that you vorlauf at really make much of a difference? Is a full speed flow better than a slower one for any particular reason?
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. To heat faster. If you run the HLT pump full speed but turn down the MLT pump it will take the mash longer to get to temperature.

During the mash I recommend recirculating with both pumps fully open so that (a) the mash heats faster and (b) there is less lag between the HLT heating element heat hitting the water and the HLT temp probe picking it up.

Kal

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jphussey




Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 171



PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. Ok. I need to go back and do some more experimenting I think then.

If I am seeing strong flow out of the return hose on top of the MLT, but the sight gauge is empty, might this suggest channeling vs. a stuck sparge?

Since I am running pumps with a higher max flow rate than the 809s, I think I will just try to start the pumps a little more slowly until the bed has been settled and then work my way up to full speed.

If that doesn't work, maybe I'll go to .050".
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Ozarks Mountain Brew




Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 737
Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

try using rice hulls, sometimes the grain is just sticky and needs help
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jphussey wrote:
If I am seeing strong flow out of the return hose on top of the MLT, but the sight gauge is empty, might this suggest channeling vs. a stuck sparge?

If the sight gauge level drops when you try and increase flow, you're having flow issues through the grain bed.

Keep in mind too that concepts you ask about are different things. Think about what they are for a moment:

Channeling: When wort runs in fissures or channels through the grain bed because the flow through the false bottom isn't even. This is often on the side walls if the false bottom/kettle mating isn't good (like with Blichmann and their stepped bottom).

Stuck sparge: When flow is impeded during sparging (you're not sparging here but you probably meant stuck mash).

If you have channeling, flow isn't isn't impeded so you don't have a stuck mash, but you're not getting flow through the entire grain bed evenly so you have poorly distributed flow through the mash. It's only going channeling through some spots. Usually happens with things like stainless mesh hose false bottoms. These don't cover the entire bottom of the kettle so the flow tends to direct itself to only a narrow spot and you leave a bunch of grain untouched by flow or only touched with limited floe.

Quote:
Since I am running pumps with a higher max flow rate than the 809s, I think I will just try to start the pumps a little more slowly until the bed has been settled and then work my way up to full speed.

If that doesn't work, maybe I'll go to .050".

Sounds like a plan.
I would also try throwing in a 1:20 ratio of rice hulls just to see if you have flow issues. (ie: 1 lb of rice hulls for every 20 lbs of grain). If that helps then there's something wrong with your milling most likely.

Kal

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jphussey




Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 171



PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great feedback, thank you! What you describe makes sense.

I have a few things to try at this point:

1) Add rice hulls to mash
2) Reduce flow slightly on wort pump to avoid compacting grain bed and/or wait a few minutes for the grain bed to settle down after mashing in before turning pump on.
3) Replace QD on MLT out...though at this point I think the first two are probably better solutions.

I will report my findings!
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Subliminalfringe




Joined: 31 Aug 2016
Posts: 14



PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wanted to offer a solution to the bubble formation. This happened to me yesterday, my 4th brew session with the system. I thought there might have been a leak around the hose clamp or QD too, but they were really tight and did great until now. I then noticed that the sight glass on the MLT was empty. I closed the pump outflow valve and the fluid level immediately returned. I then slowly opened the valve until the fluid level started dropping and kept just below that threshold. The bubbles immediately resolved. I think the mash resistance caused the sight glass to empty and then allow suction of air from the top of the glass into the false bottom space and then bubbles in the line. Hope this helps!

Sub
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Subliminalfringe




Joined: 31 Aug 2016
Posts: 14



PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops...just saw the post 12/29.

Sub
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jphussey




Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 171



PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! This is basically what I plan to do this weekend. I have the 815 pumps which have a higher flow than the 809 so was thinking that might be the problem. Too much flow causing too much suction. My sight glass was empty the whole mash as well.
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pinbrew




Joined: 31 Oct 2014
Posts: 55
Location: Kemptville, ON

Drinking: Amber Ale

Working on: Electric Hop Candy Jr., Toy Soldier Stout, Crispy Pils


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jphussey wrote:
My sight glass was empty the whole mash as well.


I had all the problems in this thread, and this one in particular, because I was milling the grains too finely. I was using the feeler gauges exclusively, but Kal's advice around cracking the grain in the hull (e.g. not milling where the grain typically comes out, or you see powder) was my sweet spot. I adjust the gap by eye to crack but not break apart, keep the RPMs on the drill low, and I haven't had a stuck mash since. This has been said already in the thread, but just wanted to add my experience. My numbers haven't been affected at all (and again, Kal mentions this, so it's nothing new Smile ).
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jphussey




Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 171



PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinbrew wrote:


I had all the problems in this thread, and this one in particular, because I was milling the grains too finely. I was using the feeler gauges exclusively, but Kal's advice around cracking the grain in the hull (e.g. not milling where the grain typically comes out, or you see powder) was my sweet spot. I adjust the gap by eye to crack but not break apart, keep the RPMs on the drill low, and I haven't had a stuck mash since. This has been said already in the thread, but just wanted to add my experience. My numbers haven't been affected at all (and again, Kal mentions this, so it's nothing new Smile ).


Thanks, pinbrew. I've considered this. I, like you were, strictly go off the feeler gauge gap of .045". I posted a pic of my crush and nobody seemed to have a problem with it, but it does appear to me, at least, to have some tearing, etc. Here is a pic:



What do you think of that?

I might try to also back off the mill to .05" in addition to just opening up the wort pump slowly during vorlauf to avoid excessive suction until the grain bed has fully settled and risk of compaction is lower.

Cheers,
Jason
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pinbrew




Joined: 31 Oct 2014
Posts: 55
Location: Kemptville, ON

Drinking: Amber Ale

Working on: Electric Hop Candy Jr., Toy Soldier Stout, Crispy Pils


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's too fine. Smile What you show here is what I had. Grains on the outside of the hulls and a bunch of powder, which turned the mash into something between pablum and oatmeal. That's not a criticism, to be really clear, but this is what I had as well. I opened it up an additional 0.05" as well, and it seems to have done the trick. I'll post on Saturday what I use as a guide; apologies for not having photos to share.
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jphussey




Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 171



PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinbrew wrote:
I think it's too fine. Smile What you show here is what I had. Grains on the outside of the hulls and a bunch of powder, which turned the mash into something between pablum and oatmeal. That's not a criticism, to be really clear, but this is what I had as well. I opened it up an additional 0.05" as well, and it seems to have done the trick. I'll post on Saturday what I use as a guide; apologies for not having photos to share.


No criticism taken! I'll back it off to 0.05" this weekend and see how that works. I can't really control my RPMs accurately, other than to basically go as slow as I can without the rollers getting stuck. I'm using a cordless Dewalt 20V Hammer Drill in the driver mode (so I can use the lowest torque setting).

I'll report back how everything works out.
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pinbrew




Joined: 31 Oct 2014
Posts: 55
Location: Kemptville, ON

Drinking: Amber Ale

Working on: Electric Hop Candy Jr., Toy Soldier Stout, Crispy Pils


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jphussey wrote:
I'll report back how everything works out.


Sweet. Use the feeler gauges, but also don't be afraid to go beyond the ranges people lay out. I have two mills (wife got me a present not realizing I had already bought one), and when set to the same spacing they produce very different results. Same manufacturer (Barley Crusher), but the roller depths are different.
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Ozarks Mountain Brew




Joined: 22 May 2013
Posts: 737
Location: The Ozark Mountains of Missouri


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if your site glass is empty 2 things happen, one is just a vapor lock and can be fixed by blowing down the tube and it breaks the bubble and fills back up , the other is like a stuck mash or even trying to open your ball valve too much in that case all your water is on top and channeling to the bottom and your probably going to get a poor efficiency, the only way to fix that is stirring in rice hulls and or backing off the valve or letting it set for a bit
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"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."
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jphussey




Joined: 17 Oct 2012
Posts: 171



PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so crushed at about .05" and only opened the wort pump ball valve about 1/2 way initially and things went much smoother during recirc. The sight-glass stayed full and when I ended opening it up all the way, it only dipped about a half gallon or so.

I still may try rice hulls next time as my pre-boil efficiency seemed low at around 70%.
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