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Sparge Time and Efficiency

 
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spicktacular




Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 32
Location: United States


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:59 pm    Post subject: Sparge Time and Efficiency Reply with quote


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Quick question for everyone. I feel like I'm following everything perfectly when it comes to brew day but I'm not getting good efficiency still. Right around 60%.

When it comes to sparge time, is longer sparge time directly related to better efficiency?

For a 5 gallon batch should I still be trying to take 60-90 minutes?

Also, for hire gravity beers, say over 8%, do you need to take even longer to sparge?

Thanks guys.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Sparge Time and Efficiency Reply with quote

spicktacular wrote:
When it comes to sparge time, is longer sparge time directly related to better efficiency?

Yes, within reason. It'll plateau at a certain point.

Quote:
For a 5 gallon batch should I still be trying to take 60-90 minutes?

Yes. Sparge time is not related to batch size. (if it was, pro brewers with 50bbl setups would take weeks to sparge).

Quote:
Also, for hire gravity beers, say over 8%, do you need to take even longer to sparge?

No. With high gravity beers efficiency drops because you're using less sparge water than usual to rinse more grain than usual and end up leaving more sugars behind. This is true of any brewing setup. You have to compensate by using more grain.

Kal

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spicktacular




Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 32
Location: United States


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the answers Kal.

So really for any size batch I should be shooting for 60-90 minutes then.

I just did, for the second time, the Kern River Citra IPA and missed my numbers by quite a bit but I think I only ended up spending 40 minutes sparging. Hopefully with the longer sparge next time I'll get better results.
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spicktacular wrote:
So really for any size batch I should be shooting for 60-90 minutes then.

Correct.

Quote:
I just did, for the second time, the Kern River Citra IPA and missed my numbers by quite a bit but I think I only ended up spending 40 minutes sparging. Hopefully with the longer sparge next time I'll get better results.

Let us know how it goes!

Equipment and other process factors can also make a difference. It also depends exactly how you're measuring too. (You didn't mention which efficiency you were referring to or how you measured).



Link: http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewing-efficiency-chart/#a_aid=5982783965026

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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spicktacular




Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 32
Location: United States


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
spicktacular wrote:
So really for any size batch I should be shooting for 60-90 minutes then.

Correct.

Quote:
I just did, for the second time, the Kern River Citra IPA and missed my numbers by quite a bit but I think I only ended up spending 40 minutes sparging. Hopefully with the longer sparge next time I'll get better results.

Let us know how it goes!

Equipment and other process factors can also make a difference. It also depends exactly how you're measuring too. (You didn't mention which efficiency you were referring to or how you measured).



Link: http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewing-efficiency-chart/#a_aid=5982783965026

Kal


I guess I don't know if that would be considered my lauter or pre boil efficiency.

I'm using a refractometer during boil and hydrometer post boil after I cool to measure. I know the hydrometer is correct and I've also used it preboil to check to see if the refractometer was correct.

I'm not hitting my pre boil gravity at all and usually missing by quite a lot.

I entered my recipe into BrewPal and using 75% brewhouse efficiency, I should've hit 1.070 pre boil and 1.080 Post boil. I hit 1.050 pre boil and only 1.065 post boil. I lowered the efficiency in the software app to 60% to match the numbers that I got so that's why I think I'm getting so low.

I'm using a custom false bottom from NorCal Brewing Solutions. It's 2" tall so I do have about 2 gallons of dead space. Basically For the strike water calculation, I just add 2 gallons to it to make up for that dead space. Is that correct on how you would do that? I'm pretty sure that's what I read on your instructions.

My panel is an exact clone of yours minus the timers in the panel.

I'm using 20 Gallon pots (no-name brand). I don't have detailed pics of my set up but there is no gap at all between the pot wall and the false bottom. In fact it's a bit of a tight fit to get it in there.

I measured my gap on my mill and it is within what you recommend.

I've been doing 60 min recirculating mashes on all my recipes.


Sorry this is a bit long now but, could my only taking 30-40 mins of lautering instead of 60-90 make that big of a difference in my efficiency shortcomings?



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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spicktacular wrote:
I'm not hitting my pre boil gravity at all and usually missing by quite a lot.

Are you stirring well before measuring?

Quote:
Basically For the strike water calculation, I just add 2 gallons to it to make up for that dead space. Is that correct on how you would do that? I'm pretty sure that's what I read on your instructions.

Correct, though I include some for the dead space, hoses, pumps, HERMS coil. In my case it's 0.72 gallons total. All this will affect is your mash thickness however, not your mash/conversion efficiency.

Quote:
I've been doing 60 min recirculating mashes on all my recipes.

With any lower temp mashes (like 150F or under) I'd go longer. I do 2 hours sometimes at 147-148F

A 40 min sparge is pretty fast. Try 90 and see what happens.

Kal

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spicktacular




Joined: 22 Jan 2015
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Location: United States


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
spicktacular wrote:
I'm not hitting my pre boil gravity at all and usually missing by quite a lot.

Are you stirring well before measuring?

I feel like I'm stirring enough and don't have an dough balls. I'll stir more next time to make sure.

Quote:
Basically For the strike water calculation, I just add 2 gallons to it to make up for that dead space. Is that correct on how you would do that? I'm pretty sure that's what I read on your instructions.

Correct, though I include some for the dead space, hoses, pumps, HERMS coil. In my case it's 0.72 gallons total. All this will affect is your mash thickness however, not your mash/conversion efficiency.

Sorry, I actually do that as well so I have to add a total of 2.4 gallons to my strike water amount to make up for deaad space, hoses, pumps and HERMS coil.

Quote:
I've been doing 60 min recirculating mashes on all my recipes.

With any lower temp mashes (like 150F or under) I'd go longer. I do 2 hours sometimes at 147-148F

Good to know!

A 40 min sparge is pretty fast. Try 90 and see what happens.

I will do that. I'm brewing in the morning again. Just a 5 G batch so I'll see what happens and report back.

As always thanks for the advice!

Kal
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spicktacular wrote:
spicktacular wrote:
I'm not hitting my pre boil gravity at all and usually missing by quite a lot.

kal wrote:
Are you stirring well before measuring?


I feel like I'm stirring enough and don't have an dough balls. I'll stir more next time to make sure.

No - I meant in the boil kettle when measuring the gravity. You need to stir well. All the heavy/sugary stuff's at the bottom otherwise.

Kal

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spicktacular




Joined: 22 Jan 2015
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Location: United States


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
spicktacular wrote:
spicktacular wrote:
I'm not hitting my pre boil gravity at all and usually missing by quite a lot.

kal wrote:
Are you stirring well before measuring?


I feel like I'm stirring enough and don't have an dough balls. I'll stir more next time to make sure.

No - I meant in the boil kettle when measuring the gravity. You need to stir well. All the heavy/sugary stuff's at the bottom otherwise.

Kal


Oh sorry, yes but I will make sure it's completely mixed tomorrow when I brew.

I don't think that's a problem though since my post boil gravity is also way low as well? Again I'll make sure that is mixed good as well too!
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spicktacular wrote:
Oh sorry, yes but I will make sure it's completely mixed tomorrow when I brew.

I don't think that's a problem though since my post boil gravity is also way low as well?

Good point. No need to stir after the boil before measuring as the boil takes care of that.

Let us know how the longer sparge goes. That's the immediate issue that sticks out.

Kal

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spicktacular




Joined: 22 Jan 2015
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I brewed again Sat and ended up doing a 90 mash and taking about 75 minutes to sparge. I had it slowed down to barely a trickle and the result...same. I'm at a bit of a loss right now. The only thing I can think of that could be the problem is my false bottom and the dead space. I have a full 2 gallons of dead space under the false bottom. When I'm calculating my strike water, I'm adding the dead space in.

Probably a stupid question but wouldn't this be watering down my wort by quite a bit making my numbers come out lower than expected?
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see how the dead space would have an impact.

How thin or thick you make the mash has a small effect on fermentability of the wort, but (within reason) doesn't have a huge change how well the sugars are extracted. If you use a LOT less sparge water (such as is done with high gravity beers where there's a lot of grain) then you're effectively rinsing more sugars with less water so that's why mash efficiency always suffers with high gravity beers on any setup. But that's not entirely your case here.

Your target 1.080 post boil gravity on the first beer you reported about is somewhat high so I'd expect efficiency to suffer a bit but not a ton. I don't have any drop in efficiencies at that level myself but that's using different kettles/false bottom/etc.

What sort of mash efficiency are you getting anyway? I see you mentioning brewhouse efficiency, but not mash efficiency.

kal

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spicktacular




Joined: 22 Jan 2015
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
I don't see how the dead space would have an impact.

How thin or thick you make the mash has a small effect on fermentability of the wort, but (within reason) doesn't have a huge change how well the sugars are extracted. If you use a LOT less sparge water (such as is done with high gravity beers where there's a lot of grain) then you're effectively rinsing more sugars with less water so that's why mash efficiency always suffers with high gravity beers on any setup. But that's not entirely your case here.

Your target 1.080 post boil gravity on the first beer you reported about is somewhat high so I'd expect efficiency to suffer a bit but not a ton. I don't have any drop in efficiencies at that level myself but that's using different kettles/false bottom/etc.

What sort of mash efficiency are you getting anyway? I see you mentioning brewhouse efficiency, but not mash efficiency.

kal


I guess I need to go back to the drawing board to figure out my mash efficiency. On the screen shot of efficiency that you put on here, I found a website that has it and it mentions this for conversion efficiency.

***Conversion efficiency is based main on mash temperature, crush, mash thickness, and pH.***

So on my recipe that I should've gotten 1.065 into the boil kettle, it called for 13.5 gallons strike water. I added in my 2.5 gallons for the dead space, coil, and hoses bringing total strike to 16 gallons.

So by my adding extra water in for the dead space, hoses, etc, isn't that effecting my mash thickness which would in-turn, effect my conversion efficiency causing my pre boil gravity to be low?
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wscottcross




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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not truly dead space on a HERMS system because you are recirculating, it just has the effect of making your mash thicker. Since you're fly sparging, you need to calculate your flow rate to end up with the correct boil volume for the sparge duration you're using. What was your sparge water temp? Are you sure your not getting any channeling in the mash? When you're cleaning out the spent grain, is it all the same color? Channeling will leave alot of sugar in the grain that is outside the channel. You can actually taste the sugar in the spent grain if you let it cool and chew some of it. Can you post a pic of what your crushed grain looks like? I'm wondering if your mill is still too loose.
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g8tors




Joined: 05 Oct 2011
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if you did a batch sparge on your next brew? Recirculate your mash through your HERMS like you normally do to maintain mash temperature. After the mash drain the sweet wort into the boil kettle as fast as it will go. Then transfer water from the HLT over to the mash tun and stir the mash thoroughly and let it sit for 10 minutes. Then drain this into you boil kettle. Calculate the volumes necessary so that after draining the mash tun the second time you should have your pre-boil volume in the boil kettle. Mix the sweet wort in the boil kettle thoroughly and take a gravity reading. If SG is more on target then you have a sparging problem and you can focus on that (more then likely channeling). If it is still way off then the problem lies somewhere else.
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