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sirmellor
Joined: 19 Feb 2013 Posts: 16
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Link Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:21 pm Post subject: When to add water salts |
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When I fill my HLT with the 20 gallons of water I treat the whole 20 gallons of water with my brewing salts at that time, rather than adding them separately to the mash and boil kettle. Is there any reasons not to do it this way?
Thanks, Richard
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11121 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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I've never used salts before, mainly because my local water profile was close to perfect for Brown Ales and that is what I brew most. When I brewed a lighter color beer I use bottled water. I've bought all the salts and plan to use EZ Water for my next brew but I've got one question.
I realize we add the salts to the mash to help with the Ph but does the Ph of the boil kettle not matter?
When I use the EZ Water calculator it has me adding a lot more salts to the boil kettle than the mash. Just curious, don't want to ruin a batch of beer because I didn't ask a question.
_________________ Visit dp Brewing Company
Hangovers hurt....but good memories last forever!
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David_H
Joined: 13 Nov 2013 Posts: 139 Location: Savannah, GA
Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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My process is to calculate the Mash Water Volume
Grain Bill x Mash Thickness + Water outside the Mash Tun
. . 20 lb . x . . . 1.33 qt/lb + 3 qt = 30 qt = 7.5 gallons
Grain Absorption = .13 qt / lb * 20 lb = 2.6 qt = 0.6 gal
Sparge Water = Boil Size - (Mash Water - Grain Absorption)
. . . . . . . . . . .= . . 14.0 - ( 7.5 - 0.6 ) = 7.1 gallons
Based on this example, I add 7.5 gallons worth of salts to the Mash and 7.1 gallons worth of salts to the Boil.
This ratio only changes based on the Mash Thickness.
_________________ David
Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11121 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
Working on: Nothing
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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On the recipe I'm using I will be adding 4 grams of Gypsum and 3.4 grams of CaCl2 to the mash and it has me adding 7 grams of Gypsum and 6 grams of CaCl2 to the Boil Kettle. Does that seem normal?
(I'm brewing a clone of Saison Dupont, using 60% bottled water)
_________________ Visit dp Brewing Company
Hangovers hurt....but good memories last forever!
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 12 Dec 2010 Posts: 11121 Location: Ottawa, Canada
Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter
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David_H
Joined: 13 Nov 2013 Posts: 139 Location: Savannah, GA
Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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One of the inputs on EZ Water is the Mash Water Volume and the Sparge Water Volume
The amount of salts is based on this ratio. This is in Step 1 B. Volume. These numbers should be approximately equal and sum up to the Boil Volume plus ~ 1 gallon.
What are those two numbers on your EZ worksheet?
_________________ David
Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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I've attached the file. I tried copy and paste and it did work so I just attached the file
Description: |
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Download |
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EZ Water.xlsx |
Filesize: |
199.36 KB |
Downloaded: |
599 Time(s) |
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
Working on: Nothing
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Again, any help in this department is great. I'm like a fish out of water with water salts.
_________________ Visit dp Brewing Company
Hangovers hurt....but good memories last forever!
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David_H
Joined: 13 Nov 2013 Posts: 139 Location: Savannah, GA
Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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So you have 6 gallons for the Mash. With a 19 lb grain bill that works out to be about 1.10 qt/lb. The Mash Water Volume does seem a bit low, I think it should be a little close to 7 gallons (19.25 x 1.25 + 3 qt = 6.8 gallons). The Sparge water is 10.5 gallons. That seems a bit high. This would result in about 16 gallons in the Boil Kettle. The ratio of Mash Salts to Sparge Salts is the same ratio of Mash Water to Sparge Water. Based on this, the salt additions don't look wrong and the final profile is not out of line.
Verify your Mash Water Volume and Sparge Water Volume first, then calculate your salts.
Are you adding the Sparge Salts to the HLT before sparging or the BK after sparging? (preferred)
What is your Target Water Profile?
_________________ David
Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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I use the app called Sparge Pal. I enter in the basic info and it tells me the amount of Mash water and Sparge water. I just re-entered the info and used 1.25 as the mash thickness and it still gave me my original numbers (I thought for sure I had used 1.25 originally). With that said, I never thought to do the math manually and double check the app. I just assumed it was correct. I've used that app ever for years and never seemed to have a problem.
I would be adding the flavor salts to the BK after sparging.
My target was to stay within the recommendations from Palmer.
Suggested Range for Style
Calcium (ppm) 50-150
Magnesium (ppm) 0-30
Alkalinity as CaCO3
Sulfate (ppm) 40-120
Chloride (ppm) 100-400
Sodium (ppm) 0-100
Residual Alkalinity <100 (-)30-30
(ppm)
David H,
Thanks for the feedback. Very helpful!
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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David_H wrote: | So you have 6 gallons for the Mash. With a 19 lb grain bill that works out to be about 1.10 qt/lb. The Mash Water Volume does seem a bit low, I think it should be a little close to 7 gallons (19.25 x 1.25 + 3 qt = 6.8 gallons). |
Just re-read this. Wouldn't it be (19.25 x 1.25) / 4 = 6.02 gallons? Where is the 3 qts you added coming from.
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David_H
Joined: 13 Nov 2013 Posts: 139 Location: Savannah, GA
Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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The extra 3 quarts is water outside of the actual Mash, such as in the HERMS Coil, Hoses and below the Mash Screen. In my system I use 3 quarts. There is some debate on whether to consider this volume or not. The Sparge Water is based on 14 gallons in the BK, so Sparge is 14 gallons minus the Mash Water plus make-up for water trapped in the grain through absorption (.13qt/lb).
So 14 gallons - 6 gallons + (19.25*.13/4) = 8.6 gallons
Now have said all of this, this is not really an exacting science and your salt additions are certainly in the ballpark.
Your Sparge App might be basing the Sparge Water on the assumption that approximately 2 gallons are left in the Mash Tun. That would be a fair assumption and in our system we probably have that and more that never make it to the BK, but since we are adding the salts only to the Sparge Water that makes it to the BK, the salt additions should be based on that number and not the total water prepared for the Sparge. This would result in a slight reduction of your Sparge Salts. But as stated previously, it probably wouldn't make much difference anyway. Its mostly just about understanding what you've done.
_________________ David
Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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dp Brewing Company
Joined: 08 Jul 2013 Posts: 664 Location: Midwest
Drinking: Chocolate Taco, Raspberry Mango Cider, American X, Sandy Dunes
Working on: Nothing
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the explanation. Some very valid points. I normally start the boil at about 12.5 gallons and boil off two gallons in the 90 mins. There is always a lot of water left the mash tun with using the amount of sparge water from the app.
_________________ Visit dp Brewing Company
Hangovers hurt....but good memories last forever!
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David_H
Joined: 13 Nov 2013 Posts: 139 Location: Savannah, GA
Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale
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Link Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Shadow, I made a mistake above on my calculation of water absorption
Quote: | The Sparge Water is based on 14 gallons in the BK, so Sparge is 14 gallons minus the Mash Water plus make-up for water trapped in the grain through absorption (.13qt/lb)
So 14 gallons - 6 gallons + (19.25*.13/4) = 8.6 gallons |
The water absorption in the grain is 0.13 GAL/lb of grain.
This will increase the Sparge Water up to 10.50 gallons which matches your numbers much better.
My bad ...
_________________ David
Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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