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Ferm Temp Control for Mult. Fermentors with one Glycol Pump

 
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jbrace1




Joined: 21 Feb 2014
Posts: 42
Location: Minnetonka

Drinking: Saison de Sol, Summer Noon, Labor Day Pale Ale, Cold Press Coffee


PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:15 pm    Post subject: Ferm Temp Control for Mult. Fermentors with one Glycol Pump Reply with quote


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I would like to build a fermentation temperature control panel to temp control 3 or more fermentors using one PID, temp probe, heat wrap and electric valve for each fermentor but just one glycol pump for the whole system.

Is there any type of relay that will accept inputs from multiple sources (PIDs) that contol a single output (glycol pump).

My thought process is this:
If one or more fermentors calls for cooling, the glycol pump is running. If not, the glycol pump is not running.

Any help is much appreciated.
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David_H




Joined: 13 Nov 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Savannah, GA

Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Start I don't have an answer, but I will think out loud and see if any of this helps.
How big are your fermenters?
I assume you will have a glycol header line and separate service lines to each fermenter with a servo-valve controlling each fermenter. For this to work well, you will need to make sure that you have enough flow capacity to supply all three fermenters at the same time and size the plumbing such that the first fermenter does not use up all of your glycol. With that said the supply size of the system will need to be under some level of pressure. You could place a small pressure accumulator down stream on the cold glycol side and use a simple pressure switch to turn the pump on. This is how your typical home well water system would work. As a demand is placed on the system (a downstream valve is opened) the first flow is covered by the pressure accumulator, as the pressure drops in the accumulator the pressure switch is triggered and the pump comes on.

The other option would be to go completely digital and build a control logic system on a Raspberry Pi type computer board. Now you can really tinker with things.

I have a DIY chiller (Window A/C and a Cooler) and I use a pump for each fermenter that is controlled by its own thermo-controller. Can you modify your Glycol Chiller to add a small pond pump for each fermenter. You might also try the Probrewers board for ideas on how their systems work.

=======
[edit] You don't need a PID controller for this, a simple thermostat style switch will work, such as the STC-1000 or Love controllers. I have used both, I like the Love better but they are much more expensive ($45 versus $15)
=======

David

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David

Kal Clone Controller
20 gallon Spike Brewing 3-Kettle System
SS Brewtech 14 gallon fermenter w/ gycol chiller
4 tap keezer with Nitro Tap
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rcktman




Joined: 29 Apr 2014
Posts: 7



PostLink    Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been meaning to post my system for awhile. Thanks for the prompt.

I created a system with 4 fermenters and a glycol system. The fermenters are 15 gallon from Brewers Hardware and the glycol system was found on ebay.

Not being an electrical minded, the only way I could figure to do this was with 2 relays in the line. One with 4 outputs that is triggered by the PID & temperature. Then the outputs of this relay triggered the compressor relay (time on delay) and the pump relay. This isolated 1 system from the next.

I moved the compressor PID from the unit to the panel.

I also installed a switch and fuse for each PID.

The pictures should show the story.



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jbrace1




Joined: 21 Feb 2014
Posts: 42
Location: Minnetonka

Drinking: Saison de Sol, Summer Noon, Labor Day Pale Ale, Cold Press Coffee


PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rcktman, that is very similar to the system i envisioned. Do you have a wiring diagram and parts list?

Thanks!

Jeff
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jcav




Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 205
Location: Central Florida


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rcktman, that is amazing!

John

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"Perfection is unobtainable, but if you chase perfection you can catch excellence"- Vince Lombardi
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rcktman




Joined: 29 Apr 2014
Posts: 7



PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks John,

Jeff, I cant find my schematic. I'll describe the logic so that you can envision the schematic. I'll do this in my next reply later. My brew system matches Kal's. I purchased a 30 amp kit from here and assembled myself. I tried to maintain the same stuff I learned building the brew panel. The wire picture above gives you the relay wiring that should match what I will describe.

Scott
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rcktman




Joined: 29 Apr 2014
Posts: 7



PostLink    Posted: Sun May 01, 2016 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is how I wired the system.

Controller Power
Neutral Bus --------------------------------------Controller Power In
Hot Bus ------Switch-------Fuse-----------Controller Power In
___________________________ | ----To 3 way switch, both terminals

3 Way Switch Wiring “On” – “Off” – “Auto”

On Side ----------------Valve 1 Terminal Strip-----------Valve
______________________________________ |---------Indicator light
Auto Side------------------Controller Relay input

The Controller Relay is triggered by fermenter temperature

Controller Relay Out------Coil of 4 Pole Single throw Relay

Relay Inputs (The wire picture above does not match this, I had to rewire to this to get the correct operation)
Hot Bus---------------------------------------------Pole contact 1
Glycol Pump Switch “Auto”------------------------Pole Contact 2
Glycol Chiller Controller Relay Output------------Pole Contact 3

Relay Outputs
Pole Contact 1------------Valve 1 Terminal Strip (when active the light is lit by “On” wire connection)
Pole Contact 2------------Glycol Pump Relay Coil Terminal Strip-------Relay Coil
Pole Contact 3------------Glycol Chiller Relay Coil Terminal Strip------Relay Coil

All 4 fermenter controllers are wired the same. The light and the relay coils will need neutrals.

The glycol system I have is for cooling trunk lines. Its controller cycled the chiller as needed and had the pump on continuously. I moved this controller to the panel and moved the pump control to the fermenter controllers.

Glycol Pump wiring with 3 Way Switch

Glycol Pump Relay Coil Terminal Strip----------------------------Coil contact for pump relay
Hot Bus-----------“Auto” side input of switch----------------------Pole Contact 2 (see above)
__________ |----“On” side input of switch-----------------------Glycol Pump Relay Coil Terminal Strip
Output contact for SPST glycol pump relay-----------------------Pump
___________________________________________ |----------Indicator Light

There is no safety against dead heading the pump. I do not have a pressure relief bypass valve in my plumbing. I have dead headed the pump for short duration with no problems during testing. As wired above the valve opens and the pump turns on at the same time.

The glycol compressor I did not want it to cycle fast like the valve & pump do. So I used a delay off relay so that once power was removed from the relay coil, the power to the compressor would stay on an additional amount of time.

Run Hot & Neutral to the glycol controller.

Glycol Compressor wiring with 3 Way Switch

Glycol Chiller Relay Coil Terminal Strip------------Coil contact for delay off Chiller relay
Hot Bus------------------------------------------------input contact for delay off glycol chiller relay
Hot Bus ------------------------------------------------“On” & “Auto” side input of switch
“Auto” side---------------------------------------------Glycol Controller relay input
Glycol Controller relay output -----------------------Pole Contact 3 (see above)
“On” side-----------------------------------------------Glycol Chiller Relay Coil Terminal Strip
Output contact for delay off glycol chiller relay------Glycol Chiller
_______________________________________ |-----Chiller Indicator light

The original Chiller control still cycles the chiller in the auto mode. For the chiller to be constantly on, I would need to add a second circulation pump to the glycol reservoir. I just need to make sure I do not leave it in manual “On” position.

Ignore the underscore "_", the post would not take spaces.

The 2 switches in the bottom right are extra. My original intent was for a CIP type system. They are wired identical to the Wort and HLT pumps in the brew panel.


Last edited by rcktman on Sun May 01, 2016 4:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
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rcktman




Joined: 29 Apr 2014
Posts: 7



PostLink    Posted: Sun May 01, 2016 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The plugs, lights & switches are what Kal specifies for the Brew panel were obtained from his links.

The fermenter controls are Ascon Technologic TLK-38 (Qty 2) and TLZ-20 (Qty 2). I had the TLZ-20s & bought the TLK-38s for this panel thinking I might program a profile in the future. The TLK-38 were more difficult to obtain, but I wanted to stay with the brand since I had the TLZ-20s.

The delay off relay is an Omron H3CR.
The glycol relay is an Omron LY1
The 4 pole relays are Omron LY4
I probably bought these from digi-key or Newark

The temperature probes are 10K ohm ntc thermitors obtained from Dwyer.

Valves are Asco Redhat 1/8" solenoids obtained from Zoro

All plumbing is 1/4" sched 80 PVC obtained from McMaster-Carr.

I hope this all helps.
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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rcktman wrote:
I've been meaning to post my system for awhile. Thanks for the prompt.


Nice build rcktman. I'm building something similar. Where did you find the wall brackets, wires and pipe clamps for hanging the glycol lines?

Thanks, McGruber
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rcktman




Joined: 29 Apr 2014
Posts: 7



PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a close up of the bracket. All the items were sourced from McMaster-Carr.


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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 237
Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the response. I found the same materials in Home Depot in the electrical aisle. I think I'm going to use the tubing clamps you did, but a less robust wall mount. Probably a ceiling mount.

Do you have any condensation problems with the glycol line?
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rcktman




Joined: 29 Apr 2014
Posts: 7



PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

During fermentation or aging at 58 and above I do not get any condensation. During this time the glycol usually only drops to 45 to 50 degrees. My system turns the chiller on when the temperature needs to be lowered.

However, during cold crash the glycol gets down to 30 degree (the minimum for my chiller). During this time I do get condensation on the exposed areas you see in the picture. The outside of my jacketed conical also gets condensation. I do plan on adding insulation to the bare areas and tape over all the insulation, but its not a high priority right now.
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