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Fermenter Chiller Setup Question

 
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fseider




Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 156
Location: Two Naked Frogs Brewery; Reading, PA (USA); Interests: Beer, Frogs, Steampunk, Being Naked


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:57 pm    Post subject: Fermenter Chiller Setup Question Reply with quote


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The following image shows how I am considering my vision of fermentor chilling. Please note that there is a glycol side, and a non glycol side. While I am well aware of running my fermenter chiller lines directly to the glycol side, and I have my reasons for not doing so at the moment, my question is around how sound is this. Will there be too much loss throughout this system, or is this completely valid?

FYI - On my fermentor side, this is a SS Brew Tech FTSS system.

Any thoughts on this particular setup will be appreciated!

EDIT:

This is all an experiment for me to get some real world practical understanding of fermentor chilling, and thought I'd share. I definitely understand the better and simpler approach to go directly with glycol to the fermenter. But that isn't the point of the experiment. What I feel is useful to understand are the following:

Presuming fermenter chilling with the SS Brew Tech FTSS temperature control:

1 - Using a fridge to chill the recirculating water
2 - Augmenting the chill water in the fridge with ice
3 - Augmenting the chill water in the fridge with glycol
4 - Gong to glycol directly

I am currently working on the number 3 experiments.

I don't have a good understanding as to how far the different chill mediums (water, glucol) will take me. I'm hoping to find out!



Thanks,
Fred



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Two Naked Frogs Brewery, Winery, & Meadery
Reading, PA
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Last edited by fseider on Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, in theory it can work.

Heat exchange is all about BTUs. Without knowing how many BTUs the fermenter puts out while fermenting in comparison the the fridge and freezer it's hard to say if it'll work for what you want to do.

Now that said, generally speaking, most glycol chillers have the cooling fins directly in the glycol. Putting a reservoir of glycol in a freezer or a reservoir of water in a fridge requires many hours to extract the heat. So in practice it may not be plausible unless you have a few hundred feet of small capillary tubing in the fridge or freezer to exchange the heat. Not sure.

One thing you can't do here is cool the water below freezing of course. That may add a wrinkle.

So why do you want to separate glycol from the fermenter? Are you concerned that some will get in the beer?

For what it's worth, I find these setups overly complex. Put the fermenter in the fridge and be done. That's what I do. I have a couple of Danby wine fridges that can be set from 38 to 64F. I set the temp to ~2 degrees below the desired wort temp, put the fermenting vessel inside, it holds that temp.

Kal

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fseider




Joined: 10 May 2013
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Location: Two Naked Frogs Brewery; Reading, PA (USA); Interests: Beer, Frogs, Steampunk, Being Naked


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the response Kal!
kal wrote:
Sure, in theory it can work.
Heat exchange is all about BTUs. Without knowing how many BTUs the fermenter puts out while fermenting in comparison the the fridge and freezer it's hard to say if it'll work for what you want to do.

And that's what I wish I knew how to calculate!
kal wrote:

Now that said, generally speaking, most glycol chillers have the cooling fins directly in the glycol. Putting a reservoir of glycol in a freezer or a reservoir of water in a fridge requires many hours to extract the heat. So in practice it may not be plausible unless you have a few hundred feet of small capillary tubing in the fridge or freezer to exchange the heat. Not sure.

I was planning on using an aluminum auto tranny cooler for this. The heat transfer should be fairly respectable, but just a quasi educated guess/speculation on my part.
kal wrote:

One thing you can't do here is cool the water below freezing of course. That may add a wrinkle.

I can't imagine that being an issue. But now that you brought that up, am I overlooking something here? Have me nervous now!
kal wrote:

So why do you want to separate glycol from the fermenter? Are you concerned that some will get in the beer?

No solid reason other than just taking a baby step on my part. I am not opposed to going glycol directly, but there is a learning process of trial and error that I do enjoy when it comes to tinkering.
kal wrote:

For what it's worth, I find these setups overly complex. Put the fermenter in the fridge and be done. That's what I do. I have a couple of Danby wine fridges that can be set from 38 to 64F. I set the temp to ~2 degrees below the desired wort temp, put the fermenting vessel inside, it holds that temp.

Complex - a little - overly, subjective Smile This is a hobby for me at the end of the day. (Brewing, electronics, mechanics, buildouts, etc) As to just just putting the fermenters directly into a fridge, well, that is a bit beyond my current means. And besides, my goal is to have three separate systems independent of each other. Three wine fridges may be out of the question at the moment. (Unless I can get the misses to stop surfing ebay and amazon! Smile )

Thanks for the insight Kal - as usual, always helpful and much appreciated!

Fred


Kal[/quote]

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Fred Seider
Two Naked Frogs Brewery, Winery, & Meadery
Reading, PA
"What's in your goblet?!"
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fseider wrote:
As to just just putting the fermenters directly into a fridge, well, that is a bit beyond my current means.

Sorry! I assumed you were going to buy the freezer and fridge, but if you're using something you already have then it may be less expensive.

The math on doing this calculations is beyond me too as it depends on the actual metals you'll be using, surface area, and so forth. That's more of a Mech Engineering fluid dynamics question ... I'm Electrical Eng. I only understand electrons. Wink

Either way, let us know how it goes and please do post as your progress. I'm really curious to see how it all works out! Good luck!

Kal

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David_H




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Drinking: Dry Irish Stout, Electric Pale Ale, American Amber Ale, Irish Red Ale


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One thing you can't do here is cool the water below freezing of course. That may add a wrinkle.

I can't imagine that being an issue. But now that you brought that up, am I overlooking something here? Have me nervous now!


I have the 14 gallon SS Brewtech with there FTSS. I have a DIY Gylcol Chiller. If you are just trying to hold Ale temperatures I think you will be ok. If you want to crash chill down into the 30's your cooling liquid will need to be about 10 degrees colder (mid-20's). That would be the concern with cooling with water.[/quote]

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McGruber




Joined: 12 Aug 2014
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Location: Idaho


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm building a similar situation and also using a transmission cooler. My current plan is to cool the air in my chamber. If that doesn't work as I expect, I will figure out how to submerse coils in my Blichmann fermenters.
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27677

I'm also not sure I understand why you're going from the freezer to the fridge to the fermenter. As Kal mentioned, you don't want to freeze the water in the fridge, so I'd think you want to be able to cycle the glycol to the fridge only when needed to hit a certain temp. If the water gets (and stays) cold enough, then your fridge will rarely cycle on anyway. You would probably also need to have a sensor that will cycle when you want to move cool water from the fridge/ fermenter.

It seems to me this is duplication of effort, and that you're tying up space in your fridge when you don't need to. You can cut out the middle man by going directly from the freezer to the fermenter (assuming you're using something to send/ stop glycol). This will save you in duplicated materials and holes in your fridge, and you could still theoretically send it to as many fermenters as you want. Do you not want to send glycol to the fermenter because you already have something that's not food safe? Propylene glycol is food safe. Be aware that 5 gallons of glycol at 40% of the mixture makes about 12.5 total gallons of water/glycol mix depending on how you decide to mix it.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004KUZ9PM/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&psc=1.&linkCode=ll1&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=93f12cb8cc9d4677eea423d1537cd192
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Master




Joined: 30 Jan 2016
Posts: 171
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Drinking: Naked Singularity Stout, Hurricane Bohemian Pilsner, Pineapple Cider, Ich bin ein Berlinerweiss, AbbyNormal Glutton Free Lambic

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PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My current setup:

FTSS in a 14 Gallon Chronical.

Three holes punched in the side of the fridge. Two for 3/8 lines, one small one for the FTSS pump.
5 gallon Corny Keg full of water with Star San. Fridge is at 38F. No aux pumps
For initial cool down to pitching temp, the kegs were about 1/2 full of water/sanitizer, and I threw about 5 pounds ice in one from the ice maker in the freezer.

Cooled wort from 93F to 68F in about 10 minutes. I gave it a few minutes to stabilize and pitched yeast.
FTSS set for 68 with ambient in the garage getting 80-100 degrees.

On the days when it was pushing 100 in there, the FTSS crept up to about 69.5, but the fridge was creeping up to 50... The Fridge couldn't keep up. I threw another 5 pounds of ice in the keg that hadn't been being used as coolant, (I keep them with some Star San in the keg fridge to give it thermal mass when I'm not using them) and took the warm keg and threw it in my chest freezer (the food one) for about five hours, and then put it back in the fridge.

I think I hit a perfect storm of unseasonably hot and peak fermentation heat generation at the same time. That said, the FTSS kept it way closer than my old bucket in the closet would have.

I'd say you probably don't need the glyclol in the freezer to the water reservoir in the fridge. Water reservoir perhaps augmented with ice if you have really bad envrionmentals to overcome.



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fseider




Joined: 10 May 2013
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Location: Two Naked Frogs Brewery; Reading, PA (USA); Interests: Beer, Frogs, Steampunk, Being Naked


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just about to post my current findings when I saw your response. We have similar numbers.

Testing with a single 14 gal fermenter:

Ambient at 80+
5 gal bucket in fridge, water only
Fridge struggling to maintain under 48 due to heat 'perfect storm'
Maintaining the fermentor to 10 degrees above fridge has not been an issue.

Placing ice blocks in the bucket I can maintain 45 degrees in the fermenter. Once the ambient is lower, the fridge maintains at 38 so my ice keeping times is significantly longer. On a hot day I get a few hours only with the ice. In moderate to cool days, I can get 8 to 12 hours. By then my next set of blocks are froze and ready to be used.

When ambient is at 70, and without ice, I can maintain at around 50.

All in all, very happy with the SS Brew Tech FTSS temp control!

That being said, I have three setups, all with FTSS temp control. Worse case testing, with all three fermenters going (note, water in fermenter test only at this stage to get a baseline), I can only maintain all three at 67 degrees with no ice additions. If they were actually fermenting this would be higher, and most likely a problem. This is not an FTSS issue, but rather my fridge struggling. I have not yet done the ice test with all three going. Plan to in a few days.

My next step is to start with glycol. First with augmenting the fridge water, then with going full glycol. I will post as I get results.

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Two Naked Frogs Brewery, Winery, & Meadery
Reading, PA
"What's in your goblet?!"
---
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fseider




Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 156
Location: Two Naked Frogs Brewery; Reading, PA (USA); Interests: Beer, Frogs, Steampunk, Being Naked


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All - thanks for the reply and suggestions!

This is all an experiment for me to get some real world practical understanding of fermentor chilling, and thought I'd share. I should have been more clear about that at the start. I definitely understand the better and simpler approach to go directly with glycol to the fermenter. but that isn't the point of the experiment. What I feel is useful to understand are the following:

Presuming fermenter chilling with the SS Brew Tech FTSS temperature control:

1 - Using a fridge to chill the recirculating water
2 - Augmenting the chill water in the fridge with ice
3 - Augmenting the chill water in the fridge with glycol
4 - Gong to glycol directly

I am currently working on the number 3 experiments.

I don't have a good understanding as to how far the different chill mediums (water, glucol) will take me. I'm hoping to find out!

Please keep your suggestions coming.

Thanks,
Fred

_________________
Fred Seider
Two Naked Frogs Brewery, Winery, & Meadery
Reading, PA
"What's in your goblet?!"
---
Model 30A; SN 0130
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some data points for you:

- glycol is used instead of water when the temperature of the fluid needs to be near freezing or lower. That's pretty much the only reason. Since glycol is an engineered fluid, it will degrade over time into acids (which corrodes certain piping). Additionally, under certain conditions glycol can act as a nutrient for bacterial growth (which is also detrimental to piping systems). Because of these issues with glycol (degradation and bacteria), glycol systems require an ongoing treatment and maintenance program to ensure that the fluid remains suitable for service. Glycol's a lot more expensive than water. Glycol is thicker than water so more power / more powerful pumps are required as compared to water.

- to get fast / efficient enough chilling of either fluid the evaporator coils (the coils in your fridge or freezer that get cold) should be directly in the fluid. This is how commercial glycol chillers work: The chilling coils are directly in the glycol. You won't get adequate cooling of the fluid if all you do is place a coil or similar in the fridge (either in air or in a water basin) as you're further decoupling the system since the fridge needs to cool the water in the basin first which then chills the coil or whatever you're using to circulate the glycol/water.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fseider




Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 156
Location: Two Naked Frogs Brewery; Reading, PA (USA); Interests: Beer, Frogs, Steampunk, Being Naked


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kal. I started looking at a small cheap freezer dedicated to a glycol system. But your points are having me rethink this a bit. Of course, I'm trying to go cheap, and that is relevant, but I don't mind some level of tinkering. Once I have a better handle on how well glycol functions under the load of three simultaneous fermenters in my test, I'll have a better handle as to sizing, and then starting digging in to some final form. But, and as usual, I'm sure some compromise will be needed.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If budget is a concern, the cheapest way to do this is to buy a $20 used fridge or freezer and control it with one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00368D6JA/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00368D6JA&linkCode=as2&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=HCAPBHNDEQOJJM2N

I use this exact model in my serving keezer. To ferment, you'd simply set the temp higher.

Not only is it the cheapest method (under $100) but there's zero futzing around or fluids to be replaced, no pumps, etc. It's the method used by thousands of brewers as it's the cheapest/simplest.

If you want to experiment / try new things, by all means go for it however. I don't want to dissuade from someone trying out new things. I only mention the above as you mentioned being on a budget.

Good luck!

Kal

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fseider




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PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my current fermenter setup for the testing. You can see the fridge handles on the other side of the wall to the left.

Once completed, will build out a status panel with temps and flow indicators. Strictly for the bling factor.



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Fred Seider
Two Naked Frogs Brewery, Winery, & Meadery
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"What's in your goblet?!"
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would insulate the vinyl hose with pipe wrap - can't hurt!

Kal

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fseider




Joined: 10 May 2013
Posts: 156
Location: Two Naked Frogs Brewery; Reading, PA (USA); Interests: Beer, Frogs, Steampunk, Being Naked


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
I would insulate the vinyl hose with pipe wrap - can't hurt!

Kal


Yep, definitely a must. Will be doing that and more once the final configuration is set. And amazing as to how much they sweat as it is.

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Fred Seider
Two Naked Frogs Brewery, Winery, & Meadery
Reading, PA
"What's in your goblet?!"
---
Model 30A; SN 0130
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Master




Joined: 30 Jan 2016
Posts: 171
Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Drinking: Naked Singularity Stout, Hurricane Bohemian Pilsner, Pineapple Cider, Ich bin ein Berlinerweiss, AbbyNormal Glutton Free Lambic

Working on: Vienna Lager. Witty name to follow.


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also cover my fermenter with a cheap Uhaul moving blanket.

The air under the blanket is cold, and the FTSS runs about half as much.

Not shown in my pics is I also insulated my coolant lines.
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