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FAQ: HERMS vs RIMS?
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:48 pm    Post subject: FAQ: HERMS vs RIMS? Reply with quote


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Last edited by kal on Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:41 pm; edited 21 times in total
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RangerBrewer




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PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your wort is mashing at 152F in the MLT, what temp would you set at your HLT for the HERMS recirc?
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wscottcross




Joined: 03 Jul 2015
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RangerBrewer wrote:
If your wort is mashing at 152F in the MLT, what temp would you set at your HLT for the HERMS recirc?


That varies depending on each setup and how much losses each system experiences. Most people only need a few degrees above target mash temp. My system is larger with 30 gallon kettles and requires a bit more but still only like 5 degrees over target mash temp.
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my case the MLT and HLT temperatures match. If I want the mash to be at 152F, I set the HLT to 152F. See my BREW DAY STEP BY STEP videos for examples:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/brew-day-step-by-step

Both my HLT and MLT PID temp probes are calibrated to mash temp (~150F) using a NIST certified Thermapen.

If you use the exact parts I recommend (including the same thicker hoses, same kettles, and same pumps) you should achieve the same results. I know of at least one or two people here on the forum that had a difference between HLT and MLT such that they had to always set the HLT temperature higher. They did not want the temp lag between HLT and MLT anymore and changed their hoses and pumps to be the same as what I recommend in the instructions and the temp difference went away.

Otherwise it's perfectly normal (and isn't detrimental) to simply set the HLT a couple of degrees or so higher if you have to compensate for heat loss.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:13 pm; edited 3 times in total
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RangerBrewer




Joined: 23 Mar 2016
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ wscottcross - Interesting, only 5 degrees - I thought it would be more than that ..... Thanks.

@Kal - I'm ordering the book either later today or tomorrow, so I will be able to follow what you are saying about the thicker hoses, pumps etc. My system will have to be much smaller than yours, (yours sounds great, and looks beautiful by the way) .... just NOT in my price range Wink.

Do you have an opinion about whether or not it's advisable to wrap the HLT and MLT with bubble wrap for insulation? I couldn't do that with gas-fired or using a cook-stove, but with the elements being inside the pots, it would be possible without worrying about melting/fires, etc. I understand some would say that there is a conflict with aesthetics, but in my case, I'm probably the only person that will see it, and it is in a converted bathroom, so the room is very small. I'm just wondering if you feel that the insulation will truly help the pots to hold the heat better, thereby saving money and energy in the process.

TIA

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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RangerBrewer wrote:
Do you have an opinion about whether or not it's advisable to wrap the HLT and MLT with bubble wrap for insulation?

Wrapping both will get you to target temperature only very slightly faster (IMHO) but may help a bit if there's a temp differential. How much energy/electrical cost you save is not something I'm familiar with. Would depend on ambient temp, effectiveness (thickness) of insulation, etc.

I didn't consider insulating because it's something else that gets in the way when it comes time to clean the MLT and over time would likely get ripped/banged up/etc. (The HLT is never cleaned since it only ever has water).

I also don't like the look but that's just me. (Like you said that's a personal opinion)

Kal

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RangerBrewer




Joined: 23 Mar 2016
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Wrapping both will get you to target temperature only very slightly faster (IMHO) but may help a bit if there's a temp differential. How much energy/electrical cost you save is not something I'm familiar with. Would depend on ambient temp, effectiveness (thickness) of insulation, etc.

Actually, I wasn't thinking about getting up to target temps, I was more considering maintaining mash temps and boil temps so the elements won't have to cycle on and off as much.

Quote:
I didn't consider insulating because it's something else that gets in the way when it comes time to clean the MLT

Hadn't thought about that - something to consider, for sure! I guess if I did go that way, I'd have to make it easily removable, either cloth-covered and zippered (not really an option AFAICS), or by using velcro strips.

Quote:
(The HLT is never cleaned since it only ever has water).

It gets pretty dusty here, since we heat with wood and the wind blows daily, almost constantly Thumbs Down ....., so I figure I'll have to clean it often, even tho I'll keep a lid on it ;>). The wife is constantly having to dust the home.

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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RangerBrewer wrote:
kal wrote:
Wrapping both will get you to target temperature only very slightly faster (IMHO) but may help a bit if there's a temp differential. How much energy/electrical cost you save is not something I'm familiar with. Would depend on ambient temp, effectiveness (thickness) of insulation, etc.

Actually, I wasn't thinking about getting up to target temps, I was more considering maintaining mash temps and boil temps so the elements won't have to cycle on and off as much.

Sure. An insulated vessel will lose less heat so the element would not need to fire as often to maintain boil or temperature. How much cost savings this results in over time is math that I wouldn't want to try and calculate this early in the morning. Wink It's probably only pennies.

Quote:
Quote:
I didn't consider insulating because it's something else that gets in the way when it comes time to clean the MLT

Hadn't thought about that - something to consider, for sure! I guess if I did go that way, I'd have to make it easily removable, either cloth-covered and zippered (not really an option AFAICS), or by using velcro strips.

Depending on which kettle you build it for, whatever you do you'd have to make sure it can withstand up to boiling temps (212F/100C).

Quote:
Quote:
(The HLT is never cleaned since it only ever has water).

It gets pretty dusty here, since we heat with wood and the wind blows daily, almost constantly Thumbs Down ....., so I figure I'll have to clean it often, even tho I'll keep a lid on it ;>). The wife is constantly having to dust the home.

Dust on the outside could be just wiped down with a damp cloth. I meant more that there's no scrubbing/washer/hosing down of the inside required in the same way as the boil kettle or MLT. The HLT is definitely less work.

Kal

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bunt1828




Joined: 13 Sep 2016
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How much volume do you need in your HLT to cover the coil?

I'm trying to weigh the pros/cons of a HERMS vs standard single infusion (in something insulated like the SS Mash tun). I think in general I'd be fine with infusion mashing because I do very few step mashes, and have grown fairly proficient at hitting mash-in temps. But I'm wondering which system would be best for 5 gallon batches (using 20gal kettles) where an infusion mash would lose the most heat (lots of head space, low thermal mass), but also doesn't need a huge volume of sparge water. Do you ever have to use way more water just to keep the HERMS coil covered? If I end up doing 75% of my batches as 5gal instead of 10, would you still recommend HERMS over standard infusion?
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bunt1828 wrote:
How much volume do you need in your HLT to cover the coil?

That depends on the kettle and the coil used. They're all different. For me with my 20 gallon Blichmanns and my hand wound 50' HERMS coil it's about 11 gallons.

Quote:
I'm trying to weigh the pros/cons of a HERMS vs standard single infusion (in something insulated like the SS Mash tun).

I mostly do single infusion myself. The benefits of the HERMS coil is to hold/maintain temp, not necessarily (or only) to do step mashes. You may also be doing at least one step however: To 168-172F mashout (I do this even with single infusion mashes).

An insulated mash tun will help hold heat, but unless you recirculate with HERMS or RIMS, it'll never hold it forever. The other benefit of HERMS or RIMS is that you don't have to get the temp exactly perfect. It'll compensate and adjust. Otherwise you're using online calculators to get close and then have to add hot or cold water to fix.

Quote:
Do you ever have to use way more water just to keep the HERMS coil covered?

No.

Quote:
If I end up doing 75% of my batches as 5gal instead of 10, would you still recommend HERMS over standard infusion?

I think you may be confusing the issue. HERMS has nothing directly to do with single infusion. HERMS is a way to maintain and hold temp reliably, regardless of how many steps you do (Single, or multiple).

Welcome to the forum and good luck!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bunt1828




Joined: 13 Sep 2016
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By infusion mashing I just meant the low-tech, no heat applied method. I guess Im just trying to understand the value of the additional investment and complexity needed for HERMS in order to hold temps exactly rather than just letting them fall a degree or two. I think I'm sold, but am still trying to quantify the complexity piece. So when you do smaller batches you don't bother covering the entire coil? Do you have to increase the HLT temp to account for that "lost" surface area? Any other changes for smaller volumes? I'm sure I'm over thinking this..
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kal
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Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bunt1828 wrote:
By infusion mashing I just meant the low-tech, no heat applied method. I guess Im just trying to understand the value of the additional investment and complexity needed for HERMS in order to hold temps exactly rather than just letting them fall a degree or two. I think I'm sold, but am still trying to quantify the complexity piece.

If you have a multi kettle setup (not BIAB) adding HERMS isn't overly complex. All you need is the coil and an extra pump, plus probably a few extra fittings. It's pretty much a given that if someone does an electric 3 kettle setup it's either going to be RIMS or HERMS as it doesn't add much more in terms of complexity but rewards you in spades. That said, everyone has different needs/requirements.

Quote:
So when you do smaller batches you don't bother covering the entire coil?

I do mostly 10 gallon batches. If/when doing 5 gallon batches, I would still make sure it's covered even if it's not used. It's only a few extra gallons of water.

Quote:
Do you have to increase the HLT temp to account for that "lost" surface area?

You can't do that. That would not work / would be incredibly finnicky if it did / would negate the whole point of having an easy to use electric setup where all you need to do is set the temperature and forget about it (it maintains/holds).

Quote:
Any other changes for smaller volumes?

No.

Depending on your kettle sizes, there's going to be a limit to how small you can go however. You probably can't (for example) brew 5 gallon batches in 55 gallon kettles as you can't even get the heating elements covered with wort or water.

If you have general questions about what way to take your build, I'd suggest starting your own brewery build thread to hash things out. I'll chime in there as will others I'm sure. This helps keep everything in one train of thought as this thread is really a FAQ about HERMS vs RIMS.

Good luck!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bunt1828




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PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got it. Thanks!
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hobbes




Joined: 08 Sep 2017
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old post, but i just finished running my first test run and thought i'd chime in on the subject of exposed coil:

Everyone seems to be putting their MLT pump outlet to the bottom of the coil and pumping "up" and out the top of the coil over to the MLT. When making hoses this makes sense because it's the shortest combination of hoses. But, I thought it makes a little more sense to pump into the "top" of the coil and out the bottom to the MLT. Two reasons...

1-The water will be warmer by the elements on the bottom if there are any temp variations. Recirculating minimizes this, but i suspect there still exists a temp gradient because the water will cool some going to the pump and back out to the top of the kettle. I didn't see any noticable temp diffs in my 20g pot with dual elements. But i have to think when firing that the water next to the elements is hotter even if by 1 degree. So if there is a "warmest" place in that HLT it's by the elements in the bottom.

2-The other thing is that the top of the coil may become exposed if you're doing a larger batch that required a bunch of strike water. From what I can tell Some people top up, some people just adjust and work with it. Topping up seems to work well if you heat above mash temp for strike and need to cool down. But then you have to worry about treating the water if you have chloramine and/or salt additions. But if you are exiting the bottom of your coil then the exposed top part doesn't have much affect... as your wort is leaving/exiting through a submerged coil and will most likely be the same temp as the water.

I know the hose is probably 1-2" longer to go from the bottom port to the MLT... but the alternate way of leaving the top port and possibly exiting through 1-2" height of exposed inside coil is the pot would be a distance measured around the radius of your coil. I have a 14" coil so i'm looking at at least 40in of exposed tubing before exiting the top port. Or if you go int he top then 30-40in of "less hot" tubing before being submerged in mash temp water and then exiting the bottom port.
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dp Brewing Company




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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think I've ever had to top off my current system to get the water line above my coil. My 20 gallon kettle is actually 22.7 gallons to the top. The top of my coils are around the 13 gallon mark. I normally only use about 7 gallons max to mash in. So I'm always above the coil, even just using 20 gallons to start.

To your first point. I believe I would rather my wort travel next to the element FIRST to get the most exposure to hotter temps and balance out by the time it exits the coil.

Another reason I prefer to start at the bottom is so that gravity plays a part in keeping the coil always completely full of wort.

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mjo2125




Joined: 27 Feb 2017
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A forum member previously posted the results of an experiment (several months ago) with wort entering the top and bottom of the HLT coil.

The conclusion is below and seems to support hobbes observation:

"We did our experiments twice, once with the wort entering the coil at the top and leaving on the bottom and once the other way around. It turns out that having the wort in the HLT coil flow from top to bottom is more efficient that from bottom to top."

https://www.brewpi.com/what-is-ideal-herms-coil-length-theory-experiments/
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjo2125 wrote:
The conclusion is below...

Careful what you conclude. Many would say that that experiment was flawed and therefore the conclusion meaningless or that the tests were very specific and the results can't be taken to apply to every setup (I would agree). They (for example) use a lower flowing pump that nobody in North America uses.

See: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26335

Kal

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mjo2125




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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll have to set up a test with Riptide pumps in the future...
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dp Brewing Company




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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
mjo2125 wrote:
The conclusion is below...

Careful what you conclude. Many would say that that experiment was flawed and therefore the conclusion meaningless or that the tests were very specific and the results can't be taken to apply to every setup (I would agree). They (for example) use a lower flowing pump that nobody in North America uses.

See: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26335

Kal



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mjo2125




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PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most likely - but it's got me interested now. There are a couple of test scenarios I'm thinking about setting up. I'm always open to challenging norms if there's potential to improve the process. I'll try them during wet testing of my system with the new pumps. I could be all "wet", but won't jump to conclusions just yet😀
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