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Internal breaker tripping

 
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tehjrow




Joined: 20 Sep 2015
Posts: 11



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:03 am    Post subject: Internal breaker tripping Reply with quote


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About a year ago I built a control box for a 110v Blichmann BoilCoil. I made sure that the house wiring was 12 gauge and the breaker was 20amp. I installed a 20amp outlet (with the sideways prong) and built the box to use that type of plug. Inside the box I put a rail mounted 20amp breaker between the power input and the main switch. I now have two issues with it.

1.) The boil is not very vigorous, the last batch I made had a pretty bad DMS problem (this issue has always been there and I honestly can't think of a solution using the 110v element).

2.) The internal breaker gets very hot and trips at about 50 minutes into the boil (this is a new problem that's happened the last 3 brews).


It's in a fairly small plastic enclosure. I wanted to add an ampmeter to it but don't think I have room. I read on a few posts that the 110v BoilCoil pulls around 18ish amps, could this overheat the breaker and trip it? Would a fan/vent cooling solution help? Another thing to note is that the SSR has a huge heatsink and doesn't seem to get very hot, but the breaker for sure gets hot and trips.

Here are some photos of the box:

http://imgur.com/a/R1dWJ
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itsnotrequired




Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 177
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you could have an element problem that is causing more current to be drawn than should be. a 20 amp breaker doesn't trip the instant it sees 20 amps. it could draw, say, 20.5 amps for as long as an hour or so before tripping. and it would feel hot. is your upstream 20 amp breaker in your panelboard also getting hot? panelboard breakers are typically 'beefier' when compared to these smaller industrial breaker.
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tehjrow




Joined: 20 Sep 2015
Posts: 11



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hadn't thought to check the breaker in the box for warmth

itsnotrequired wrote:
you could have an element problem that is causing more current to be drawn than should be. a 20 amp breaker doesn't trip the instant it sees 20 amps. it could draw, say, 20.5 amps for as long as an hour or so before tripping. and it would feel hot. is your upstream 20 amp breaker in your panelboard also getting hot? panelboard breakers are typically 'beefier' when compared to these smaller industrial breaker.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Internal breaker tripping Reply with quote

tehjrow wrote:
1.) The boil is not very vigorous...

What is your pre-boil volume? What wattage is the heating element?

Quote:
I made sure that the house wiring was 12 gauge and the breaker was 20amp .... I read on a few posts that the 110v BoilCoil pulls around 18ish amps, could this overheat the breaker and trip it?

House voltage is technically 120V so you have a 120V boil coil. Tell us the wattage and then you can calculate the current.

Power = voltage x Current, so current = power/voltage.

Example: If the element is 1200W and the voltage is 120V, then current = 1200/120 = 10 amps.

For it to pull 18 amps, it would have to be a 2160W element and the wall voltage would have to be exactly 120V.
Note that if voltage drops, the power output drops too. You don't actually draw more current as the voltage drops as power on a heating element does not stay consistent if voltage is lower (many electric brewers get this part wrong).

EDIT: I checked the Blichmann site and for 120V, they have both 2000W and 2250W. So if your wall outlet measures exactly 120V, the 2000W would draw 16.7 amps, and the 2250W would draw 18.75 amps. Both are under 20A.

Kal

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tehjrow




Joined: 20 Sep 2015
Posts: 11



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Internal breaker tripping Reply with quote

Quote:
What is your pre-boil volume? What wattage is the heating element?


We do 5 gallon batches so usually between 6 - 7 gallons pre-boil.
We got the 2250W element.

Quote:
House voltage is technically 120V so you have a 120V boil coil.

Sorry about that, it seems like people just interchangeably throw around 110v and 120v, I get confused sometimes.

Quote:

EDIT: I checked the Blichmann site and for 120V, they have both 2000W and 2250W. So if your wall outlet measures exactly 120V, the 2000W would draw 16.7 amps, and the 2250W would draw 18.75 amps. Both are under 20A.



So, in an enclosed box with no fan, would a 20 amp breaker overheat and trip after 3ish hours of continous use at our estimated 18~19 amps max? If so, would a fan help or does this element just pull too much to sustain that long on a 20 amp circuit?
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itsnotrequired




Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 177
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the fact that this breaker heating is a new phenomenon implies something has changed in the setup. running the breaker in that box at that amperage shouldn't be a problem (assuming the heat sink is pulling adequate ssr heat away). check the breaker at your main panel for heat. if it is cool, problem points to the breaker in your control box. if that is hot as well, could have an element or ssr issue which is causing additional current draw.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup. Shouldn't be a problem. Putting a fan in an enclosed box won't really help, and you shouldn't need one in the first place.

2250W is a bit low for boiling 7 gallons, hence the non-vigorous boil.

Kal

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Vesteroid




Joined: 02 Sep 2015
Posts: 57



PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is all purely anecdotal so take it for what it's worth. I have seen a number of post saying it's fine to run 19.5 Amps on a 20a breaker for short periods (less than 3 hours). I am no electrical engineer and I suspect we have a few here on the forum, but I have spent my entire 30 year career in the electrical sign industry. As you can imagine if the sign goes out an owner always blames the sign company. No matter what actually happened. Since a sign is made up of typically 2 or more internal circuits, when you see an entire sign go out, the odds are it's not an actual sign problem, it's a power to the sign problem. (Speaking of newer signs recently installed). I have seen so many breakers loaded right up to 20 amps or over 20 Amps in my life that failed I have lost count.

So can you do it, yes. Can you expect that breaker to last, in my opinion no you cannot. By contrast on properly loaded circuit (80%) I have rarely seen breaker failures.


Last edited by Vesteroid on Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 11116
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: Pub Ale, Electric Creamsicle, Mild, Pliny the Younger, Belgian Dark Strong, Weizen, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point about the 80% limit. My control panel design assumes only 80% load, and I recommend people adhere to it if they can.

Kal

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itsnotrequired




Joined: 15 Sep 2015
Posts: 177
Location: central wi


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a 20 amp breaker should be able to carry 20 amps indefinitely...at rated temperatures. that is the key point, all of the ratings are based on essentially lab-level conditions but in the real world, there are a host of factors that can influence temperature and push equipment outside of their ratings. this a is a large reason why the 80% 'rule' exists. all it takes is a panelboard to be 1 degree warmer than the design rating and the breaker can trip when running at or slightly below rated current.

all that being said, it is good design practice for these applications to include some margin in breaker sizing. in the national electrical code world, it explicitly stated that loads operating for three hours or more continuously are considered continuous loads and as such need to follow the 80% rule. it can be debated whether a hetaing element cycling is considered 'continuous' but that's another story...

back to the op, were you ever able to see if the breaker in your upstream panel is hot as well?
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Tungsten




Joined: 06 Dec 2014
Posts: 318
Location: Buffalo, NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What pumps are you using? Do they run for any reason during the boil? Kal's original design uses March's 809 pumps. However, the 815s (which are more widely available now) pull almost half an amp more apiece (1.4 amps vs. 0.94 amps) assuming they are at max draw (which may or may not be the case). Regardless, you don't have a lot of wiggle room, so for your sake this could mean that you're actually above 20 amps if you're even running one of the pumps for some reason during the boil.
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tehjrow




Joined: 20 Sep 2015
Posts: 11



PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

itsnotrequired wrote:
back to the op, were you ever able to see if the breaker in your upstream panel is hot as well?


Not yet, I'll be running some water tests this weekend and check back in. I also have another breaker on the way as a test.
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tehjrow




Joined: 20 Sep 2015
Posts: 11



PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tungsten wrote:
What pumps are you using? Do they run for any reason during the boil? Kal's original design uses March's 809 pumps. However, the 815s (which are more widely available now) pull almost half an amp more apiece (1.4 amps vs. 0.94 amps) assuming they are at max draw (which may or may not be the case). Regardless, you don't have a lot of wiggle room, so for your sake this could mean that you're actually above 20 amps if you're even running one of the pumps for some reason during the boil.


We don't use a pump during the boil but we do while heating strike/sparge water. We use this pump with a 120v/12v converter wall wort.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OOE8JVK/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00OOE8JVK&linkCode=as2&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&linkId=FRO2PB234PEXRG4O

Here's a pic of how we use it. Small apartment brewing.

http://imgur.com/rurp0df

Also I bought a clamp amp meter so I'll be able to check actual draw soon.
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tehjrow




Joined: 20 Sep 2015
Posts: 11



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a little poking around today. When the heating element is going it's pulling 19.8 amps without the pump. I'm not sure how Blichmann expected this thing to ever work correctly (since it fits in their 10 gallon kettle).

At this point we're considering getting the 240v BoilCoil, building some kinda 240v switchbox for the stove, and redoing the control box.
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