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Carbonation calcs with 25/75 beer gas vs CO2

 
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Drix



Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 17



PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:00 pm    Post subject: Carbonation calcs with 25/75 beer gas vs CO2 Reply with quote


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Any beer gas calculators out there similar to the beer tools pro calculator for CO2? How many volumes of beer gas is recommended for a Guinness type of experience?
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Drix



Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 17



PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just glanced through the draught beer manual on www.draughtquality.org. (Excellent resource)

Going to re-phrase above question. Since nitrogen not easily absorbed by beer, what does it mean when they reference Brewers like Guinness injecting nitrogen in the brewing process?

For our electric brewery recipe on the dry Irish stout, what CO2 targets work for this style? Do you you do the original carbonation with the beer gas mixture or only push the beer with the mixture after original carbonation complete?
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Creepy



Joined: 04 Feb 2014
Posts: 130
Location: North Chicago Burbs


PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright Drix I'll take a stab at it since no one has given you any love on this one yet. I don't have a nitro setup on my kegerator yet but have read about it a bit in hopes of making the plunge (currently serve stouts and porters on a stout faucet with the restrictor disc removed).

Anyway, there are a couple ways to skin the cat from my understanding. First you can carbonate as usual with CO2 only. Once carbed then disconnect, bleed the head space, and hook up with beer gas mixture at appropriate pressure setting. This seems to be a preferred method by many I've read about. The second method is to carb using beer gas at your appropriate pressure for desired volumes CO2 (use the standard charts to determine volumes). What is that pressure? Well it depends on your gas mixture. You're dealing with partial pressures in this and the CO2 is the only gas in the mixture that will go into solution. So whatever your CO2 percentage is (likely 25% or 30%) that is what you use. So, with beer gas connected and a 25% CO2 mixture at 40 psi you are effectively pushing 10 psi CO2.
CO2 psi = total psi x % CO2
or
Total psi = CO2 psi / % CO2

If your charts say you need 8 psi for your particular volumes CO2 and you have a 25% CO2 mixture...
Total psi = 8psi / .25 = 32 psi (set with beer gas)

I hope this helps and if anyone sees fault in my understanding please dime me out. Again, I'm still not actually implementing this myself. Mug [/quote]
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Creepy



Joined: 04 Feb 2014
Posts: 130
Location: North Chicago Burbs


PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drix wrote:
Going to re-phrase above question. Since nitrogen not easily absorbed by beer, what does it mean when they reference Brewers like Guinness injecting nitrogen in the brewing process?


As for your other question, nitrogen will not go into solution so it's addition in the gas mixture is purely to bump up the serving pressure. In order to get the creamy mouthfeel and tiny bubbled, tight, creamy head a stout faucet needs to be used. That is crucial is serving on beer gas. If served at 30-40 psi on a standard faucet you'll likely have a foam explosion. There is a small restrictor plate in the stout faucet that adds a great deal of resistance and must be overcome with higher serving pressure in order to maintain a smooth pour and flow. As the beer is pushed thru this plate the CO2 is forced out of solution leaving a relatively flat beer with a nice creamy head.

In short, if you want to go the nitro route, you must have a stout faucet, nitro regulator on your tank, and the most often recommended gas mixture I've seen is 30/70. Just my .02

Cheers!
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10209
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW I keep my beer in the keezer at about a degree or two below freezing so that pours are at about 38-40F. The regulator on my CO2/Nitro (70/30 blend) tank is at about 15 PSI.

Kal

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Tungsten



Joined: 06 Dec 2014
Posts: 316
Location: Buffalo, NY


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
FWIW I keep my beer in the keezer at about a degree or two below freezing so that pours are at about 38-40F. The regulator on my CO2/Nitro (70/30 blend) tank is at about 15 PSI.

Kal


Whoa... maybe this is commonplace, but I haven't heard this before so it's interesting! I'd really like to pick your brain on your draft setup sometime because I think I'm very far off on it (the temp of the keezer, plus the glycol recirc which I would assume keeps your tap temp way below 38).
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10209
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The RV antifreeze I recirculate doesn't keep the taps below 38 - it keeps the lines probably above, but the average pour comes out at 38-40F since the kegs are kept at or just below freezing.

One of the benefits of this is that condensation in the keezer is not an issue as many people have. Instead, the condensation freezes. Then about once a year I turn it off for ~12 hours and the big chunks of ice that have formed on the side just pop off and I throw them in the sink. This way I don't need to use anything special to manage the condensation like damprid or similar that many people seem to use (link: http://www.amazon.com/s/?_encoding=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&field-keywords=damprid&linkCode=ur2&tag=theelectricbrewery-20&url=search-alias%3Daps&linkId=SFLJESQBYORFWLGW).

Kal

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huaco



Joined: 05 Apr 2012
Posts: 1508
Location: Burleson Texas


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At which temp will a keg of beer freeze? I assume the small amount of alcohol in beer drives the freezing point down well below where your keezer is set Kal? I may very well do this same thing as I'm sick and tired of dealing with condensation.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10209
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

huaco wrote:
At which temp will a keg of beer freeze?

Not sure. Depends on how much alcohol is in the beer. There's probably online calculators available for this.

Quote:
I assume the small amount of alcohol in beer drives the freezing point down well below where your keezer is set Kal?

Correct.

You don't have to have it much below freezing or even below freezing as the cooling coils are the coldest point and will always be colder than everything else in the keezer, so moisture condenses there first and freezes.

Kal

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Drix



Joined: 15 Oct 2014
Posts: 17



PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

all repsponss make sense. Thanks. I did find one slight nuance throughout this process that might be worth noting for those that are following this thread.

2 types of common "beer gas" available:
a. 30% N2 / 70% CO2
b. 25% CO2 / 75% N2 - this is called G-mix or Guiness gas

Before I started my all grain, elec brew set up I was using an N2 set up to push off the shelf guiness kegs. I'm not exactly sure which N2 mix I even have. Probaly the latter...

After I figure that out, then the calcs you guys reference above should be pretty straight foward to maintain correct carbonation and provide enough pressure to push through stout faucet restrictor plates.

Thanks for the replies and additional tips on reducing condensation.
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