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How much hops if only hopping during flameout (hop stand)?
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kal
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Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

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PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:16 pm    Post subject: How much hops if only hopping during flameout (hop stand)? Reply with quote


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Hi guys!

So I want to try and experiment and wanted some feedback:

Some say that you get the best hop flavour and aroma (as well as some added bitterness) doing a "hop stand" where you add hops at flameout and then let it sit for 60-90 minutes.

So I'd like to try and take this experiment to the extreme: Push the aroma and flavour as far as possible by *only* doing a hop stand. That is, not add any hops during the boil at all, only after and held at specific temperatures. Our control panel with advanced temperature control in the boil kettle allows this (unlike a dial-type boil control). This process is used by new popular beers like The Alchemist's highly popular Heady Topper.

I think a 1.050-1.055 fairly standard APA (95% 2-row, 5% crystal) with its lower bitterness could pull this off. What I need to make sure of is that I get enough bitterness to not have the beer be overly sweet. The target is to get an extremely hop flavoured and aromatic APA that doesn't have much bitterness. I also need to make sure I don't overdo the bitterness. I don't think you can overdo hop flavour and aroma, but bitterness you can.

Some say that with a hop stand you get 10% of the bitterness you'd get if you boiled for 60 mins, so I'm going to add enough hops that would normally get me to around 300-400 IBU (if boiled the full 60 mins). (EDIT: This is incorrect. It's actually 10% utilization and most IBU curves assume 30% utilization if boiled for 60 mins, so you want to actually add 3 times as many hops as if you were boiling for 60 mins if you want the same bitterness. This is all experimental as Hop Stands are new, the science not entirely understood).

But then some say it's more like a 20 minute addition. Problem is that the resultant IBUs change greatly depending on which assumption I use:

(1) Assuming 10% of 60 min boil: 24 IBU
(2) Assuming 20 minute addition: 132 IBU

This is would be about 16oz of hops for a 12 gallon post-boil batch. All added immediately at flameout and left to steep for 60-90 mins with the lid off. By not letting it cool off first a bit, it should still extract some bitterness too. They say that below 175F bitterness is no longer extracted but there's no hard/fast brick wall numbers.

24 IBU would probably be ok (given the massive flavour/aroma which I'm going after) but if 132 IBU is more accurate then it's way too high and I need to cut the hops to 1/4 the original amount or possibly cool the wort first before adding the flameout hops. (?)

IBU calculations completely break down when the closer you get to flameout. Software doesn't really know what to do with it.

Thoughts? Opinions?


Kal

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Last edited by kal on Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:22 am; edited 3 times in total
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huaco



Joined: 05 Apr 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't help you with the numbers as I have no experience with a Hop Stand... However, I am VERY interested in how this turns out.
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skelley



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This would seem to me to be a little like the hop tea as apposed to dry hop. I think that would more closely approximate what you are doing. There is fair amount of information of hop teas and their effect. The general assumption is that it is more powerful than dry hopping and you only need half the hop load. Not completely sure it has anything to do with what you are attempting. What if you grabbed some wort half way through the boil and made a hop tea with say a gallon of your own wort and add it back and cfc to fermenter immediately decreasing the bittering of the 60-90 minute wait. You would make the tea at around 160 degrees instead of near 212 at very end of boil.
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kal
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Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the ideas. My understanding with Hop Stands (vs dry hopping) is that the temperature does play a big role since the various acids in hops react different depending on the temp. You'll get a different result depending on what the temperature is and every hop is different.

BYO has an article on Hop Stands in their March-April 2013 issue which was a good read:

http://byo.com/stories/issue/item/2808-hop-stands

Kal

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mcl



Joined: 11 Oct 2011
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kal
I don't believe they are saying it is 10% of the 60 minute addition. Rather they are getting 10% utilization.

http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?28064-Hop-Utilization-of-Whirlpool-Additions
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I'm confused then. What exactly does "utilization" mean?

I see the same thing in the BYO article where they say "From my own experience with extended hop stands in 11 gallon batches, a 10% utilization rate for whirlpool hops seems reasonable".

I'm confused.

Kal

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mcl



Joined: 11 Oct 2011
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to admit I am now confused as well. I really would like to know what they mean as I plan on using this technique in a big IIPA this weekend. As you point out with the amount of hops I am using after FO this could make a huge difference in the final beer.

I am still doing some reading but for my beer this weekend (based on the probrewer link) I am going to assume about 1/3 of the IBUs from a 60 min addition for my "high temp" (195 or so) FO addition. I am going to assume 0 IBUs form my "low temp" (about 155) addition

Here is a link to how IBUs are figured. I am trying to make sense of the whole 30% claim on Probrewer. Please post if anyone can make sense of this.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-5.html
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mcl



Joined: 11 Oct 2011
Posts: 156



PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are they talking about utilization (U) in this equation? If so I have know idea how anyone can just toss around percentages. It seems very dependent on gravity.

From How to Brew

IBU = AAU x U x 75 / Vrecipe

Hop Utilization Equation Details
For those of you who are comfortable with the math, the following equations were generated by Tinseth from curve fitting a lot of test data and were used to generate Table 7. The degree of utilization is composed of a Gravity Factor and a Time Factor. The gravity factor accounts for reduced utilization due to higher wort gravities. The boil time factor accounts for the change in utilization due to boil time:

Utilization = f(G) x f(T)
where:
f(G) = 1.65 x 0.000125^(Gb - 1)
f(T) = [1 - e^(-0.04 x T)] / 4.15
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mcl



Joined: 11 Oct 2011
Posts: 156



PostLink    Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay sorry I am link spamming you. This is how I am going to calculate the additions. I am manipulating time value on this calculator to come up with 10% utilization and I am going to use that value.
http://www.probrewer.com/resources/tools/bitterness.php

Sample values
volume .161 barrels (5 gal)
wort sg 1.050
AA 10
mass added .0625 lb (1 oz)
Time boiled 13 min
Utilization 10%
IBU 15




more reading
http://realbeer.com/hops/research.html
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=5555.55;wap2
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Holter



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it sounds like a fun experiment, id be interested in comparing an all late hop beer (but still boil hops) vs. a hop stand beer to see how much of an effect the change in process has on the "smooth" bitterness. I do a lot of late hop beers because i want big aroma and smoother bitterness. If there is no substantial difference then i would wonder why it would be worth it to extend your brew session an additional 60-90 minutes (potential).

I feel like late hopping is an expensive brewing process if you are trying to achieve bitterness from your late hop additions. For the hop stand method you say you might be using 16oz of hops to hit 24 IBU - now THAT is expensive. Those are gold nugget IBU's!

To try to help though, here is my interpretation. In the example they give in BYO for the Pelican Pub and Brewery beer they say the brewer is able to achieve 16% utilization by tossing in the hops at near boiling for 30 minutes. Their goal is 24 IBU's which isnt very far off from your goal of 30-40IBUs for your APA. They state that they use .75lbs (12 oz) per bbl (31 gallons). Lets say that you are brewing a 12 gallon batch and we use the ol' cross multiply and divide technique from elementary school. 12oz for 31 gallons is equivalent to 4.65oz for 12 gallons. Unfortunately they dont list the AA% of the Mt Hood hops which makes it hard to know if your 16oz of hops are relative to the 4.65 oz i calculated above, but i think mcl is correct that you should assume you will get a 10% yield out of the hops you throw into your hop stand and you should calculate it from there. 60 minute hops do not produce 100% utilization. The one thing i would suggest would be to figure out what utilization calculation your brewing software uses because thats what you are used to using. Find THAT formula and then apply it to the numbers mcl listed above to figure out what your expected IBUs will be. That way you can scale up/down your total hop contributions.

One other good thing to compare the article and your experiment is that the OG is similar to your target at 1.049 - so i think you can assume that the 16% or 10% as mentioned by the beersmith calculator guy in relation to your typical bittering hops is more accurate than the theory of the hops providing a similar result to a 20 min hop addition.

Honestly that just makes sense to me. The 20 minute addition is a continuous boil meaning the hops (or more specifically the acids within the hops) are isomerizing more than they would in a still solution that is starting at a boiling or near boiling temperature and dropping off from there. Isomerization at 212 is more likely than isomerization at 210, etc. So the slight dropoff you get is going to impact it substantially.

Really cool idea, please let us know what you end up going with and how the resulting beer is!

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mcl



Joined: 11 Oct 2011
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holter - Thanks for putting your take on this. Your thoughts on the matter were more organized than mine.
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kal
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Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holter wrote:
The one thing i would suggest would be to figure out what utilization calculation your brewing software uses because thats what you are used to using. Find THAT formula and then apply it to the numbers mcl listed above to figure out what your expected IBUs will be. That way you can scale up/down your total hop contributions.

Aha! Now I get it. Ok, so I use Beer Tools Pro and it has hop curves built in. Example:



http://www.beertoolspro.com/wiki/Utilization

I use is their default curve called "basic". It says 30% utilization at 60 min.

So if I want to (say) target 40 IBU with only hop stand (0 min) hops that supposedly get 10% utilization, I should enter the hops into Beer Tools Pro as 60 min hops and try and target 3 times the amount (120 IBU).

Got it!

So something sort of like this:

Bitterness: 129.0

4 oz (36.4%) Centennial (9.2%) - added during boil, boiled 60 m
2 oz (18.2%) Cascade (6.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 m
2 oz (18.2%) Chinook (11.4%) - added during boil, boiled 60 m
1 oz (9.1%) Citra (11.1%) - added during boil, boiled 60 m

So 9 oz total, maybe 8.

Except of course these would all be 0 min hops, no 60.

This is for 12 gallons post-boil, wort not chilled at all since 10% seems to be the target on the assumption that you toss the hops in right away.

I may let it get down to 170F or so and then throw in some more hops...

Kal

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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some more info...

See here:

http://518124.cache1.evolutionhosting.com/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2009/RDRM-BBB-ATRM1-Advanced%20Topics.pdf

This is the slide show by Kristen England on the subject of Hop Stands (and other topics) he gave at some AHA thing... it was determined 80 min + dry hopping = maximum flavour and aroma.

This info's also mentioned on page 201 of the new "For the love of Hops" book which I'm reading now:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1938469011/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1938469011&linkCode=as2&tag=theelectricbrewery-20

Good book. The book doesn't have the nifty graphs that this presentation does however.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

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PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a link to the recipe I'm going to brew later today:

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26503

There's a full pound of hops added after boil at two times. It's part of a local APA competition we're having and I figured I'd try something completely different/new. According to Beer Tools Pro, my bitterness should be 0 IBU. Wink

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:22 am; edited 6 times in total
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huaco



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PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure wish I could taste this batch...
Dang, that's a LOT of hops. A pound and a quarter!!!! Look forward to reading your tasting notes on this.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup. Lots of hops. Wink The competition calls for an APA (not an IPA) so my only concern really is over-bittering. I want it to taste around 40 IBU in terms of bitterness, but to be over the top in terms of flavour/aroma.

I'm *hoping* the bitterness won't be over the top.

If I assume hop stand bitterness is 10% utilization and that only the 0 min hops introduce bitterness (and not those steeped at 170F) then I get 32 IBU. The 170F hops will certainly give some bitterness so probably around 40 IBU total (?). Just about right for an APA.

If I assume that hop stand bitterness is like a 20 min addition (and again assume that those steeped at 170F give no IBUs) then I get 54 IBU. The 170F hops will certainly give some bitterness so probably around 60 IBU total (?). Too high for an APA.

I guess it depends who I believe and possibly other factors that aren't quite understood yet. Should be an interesting experiment!

If it wasn't for the competition I'd probably just make it an AIPA and bump up the malt to get to ~7% ABV.

I guess we'll see! If it turns out too bitter, I'll wait a few months or just blend it with some IPA I've made.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

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PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Decided to bump my boil up to 90 mins from 60 based on the study I posted earlier which says: "A long wort stand is ok if you have a strong vigorous 90 min boil".

They're probably worried about driving off the precursors to DMS. Normally I only boil for 90 mins when using pils malt (since it has more of it) but I figured I'd do it here too.

An 80 min stand + extra 30 mins boil makes for a long brew day!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kevin59



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PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do like your recipe's Bitterness estimation! Smile

Good luck with the long brew day!
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kal
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Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

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PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm committed now!

Water heating up in the HLT:



16 oz of hops blended up (before I split it into 6 and 10 oz):



With a pen for scale:



That's a lot of hops for 12 gallons of APA!

Kal

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huaco



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PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. Looks like fun. Learning a new method.

Did I miss something about a "Competition" Are you brewing this specific way to stay within the confines of rules for a competition?
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