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Kal's basement Brewery/Bar/Home Theatre build 2.0
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10124
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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chutracheese wrote:
Hey Kal,
Did you document how you had you pump and chiller lines and tubing hooked up witht the camper antifreeze? Pics?

On the old setup? No. I will be doing it on the new setup however.

Kal

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huaco



Joined: 05 Apr 2012
Posts: 1508
Location: Burleson Texas


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
chutracheese wrote:
Hey Kal,
Did you document how you had you pump and chiller lines and tubing hooked up witht the camper antifreeze? Pics?

On the old setup? No. I will be doing it on the new setup however.

Kal


Elaborate please! Is it a closed loop?
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10124
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Product (beer) line chilling details on the new setup are here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=290842#290842

Once installation of this starts I'll add a lot more details.

Kal

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chutracheese



Joined: 06 Oct 2011
Posts: 97



PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Product (beer) line chilling details on the new setup are here: http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=290842#290842

Once installation of this starts I'll add a lot more details.

Kal


Cool. Not to get the thread derailed here, but my idea is to use a pump with the antifreeze through a stainless immersion chiller inside a 15g conical to maintain fermentation temps. Looking forward to seeing your design and how you do it.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10124
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last night I measured out the drop I needed for my projector mount to get under the centere bulkhead by using a string and using a laser pointer to double check too. I need a 6" drop minimum for my given distance from screen to projector (called 'throw distance').

I want something with Roll, Pitch and Yaw Adjustments as well as quick release to make mounting easier.

So now the mount's been ordered. It comes in 3 parts:

Chief CMA101 "designer" ceiling plate (the part you bolt to the ceiling)



Chief CMS003 3" pipe (1.5" NPT) - though any 1.5" NPT pipe will do if the length is right



Chief RPMA281 elite adjustable mount (which includes the SLB281 plate to fit a RS45 or RS55)


The SLB281 plate is not shown in any of the pictures of the RPMA281 which just makes things more confusing. It looks like this:



Every projector has different mount points (usually done through where the feet are) so you need a 'adapter' of some sort to connect the adjustable mount to the projector. That's where the SLB281 comes in. It's made for the JVC RS45/55 model projector.

Different ones are available depending on the projector you have. If you end up changing projectors you only have to replace the plate, not the whole mount.

All combined the drop's slightly more than 6" which is perfect.

Digital projector mounts are overly confusing to research, especially given that many manufacturer websites seem to have conflicting information throughout their site.

Kal

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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10124
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fireplace was also ordered a couple of days ago. It's an Bio Flame ventless biofuel fireplace:



Video: http://www.youtube.com/embed/K7glw1pkekk?autoplay=1

Specs:

Internal dimensions: 47.2" wide, 13.8" deep, 19.7" high
Finish: Brushed Stainless Steel
Thermal Output: 4.4Kw/h 15000BTU

Bioethanol means we don't have to vent to the exterior which simplifies installation (no gas line hookup, no need to vent to the outside). The external venting requirements of gas fireplaces was the main reason we went with biofuel: Installing an external vent outside only a few feet off the ground may get in the way of (or limit) what we can do with a future backyard patio/deck. The house is new so there's nothing in the backyard at the moment.

The clean burning nature of denatured ethanol (renewable bio-fuel) means that the burner does not require a flue to remove toxins. The firebox requires zero clearance from combustables so the fireplace doesn't have to eat a lot of space in the room either.

My only criticism on these fireplaces is that (a) you have to fill them and [usually] light them manually (they provide you what's essentially a glorified BBQ lighter), and (b) they're expensive for what's essentially a steel box with a trough.

While this fireplace is mostly decorative it puts out more heat than I thought: Roughly 4.4 Kw/h or 15000 BTU.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:32 am; edited 2 times in total
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wubears71



Joined: 14 Mar 2012
Posts: 278
Location: Webster Groves, MO

Drinking: Keg 1- Hefenweizen, Keg 2- Vanilla Scotch Porter, Keg 3-Munich Helles

Working on: Stinky IPA


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice fireplace there. I'm guessing that it will get pretty hot since it doesn't vent outside. Hopefully it won't get too hot for you. I'm surprised something that nice has such a poor lighting mechanism.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10124
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wubears71 wrote:
Nice fireplace there. I'm guessing that it will get pretty hot since it doesn't vent outside. Hopefully it won't get too hot for you.

From what I understand the heat output on biofuel fireplaces is less than electric or gas fireplaces. So while it appears big, there's less heat. I suppose it's more efficient heat too (nothing wasted) since there's no flue. The builder/designer has done hundreds of fireplaces over the years so I'm assuming it'll be fine.

Kal

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benoitbo



Joined: 07 Dec 2011
Posts: 62
Location: Richmond, Qc


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice Fireplace, how much does this bad boy go for?.. also building my basement Smile
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Ben Bouchard

Control Panel Ready, Kettles Ready, Pumps Ready. First Dry Run. Working on the Hood and fermentation Chamber.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10124
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MSRP's around $5K for the fireplace insert, glass, and burner. We're paying $2600.

Kal

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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10124
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ordered 100 sq ft of B-Quiet Ultimate - a viscoelastic deadener with a supercharged butyl based adhesive. It's a less expensive version of Dynamat and originally meant to deaden the sound in cars but is often used to quiet HVAC ducts and pipes as well. Similar to what you see installed under many sinks.

100 sq ft is probably double of what I need but I have other projects I can use it on.

You don't need to completely cover the ducts either. Here's a quote/example from AVS:

Quote:
If you are finishing your basement, here is an important tip.

Dynamat your ductwork!

It makes a HUGE difference. We use our basement all the time now, and when it was unfinished the sound from the furnace kicking on (boom) was very annoying. And you could hear it all over the house.

I put Dynamat Extreme on all my ductwork and also on my furnace and it ELIMINATED the noise.

I can't even tell when my furnace kicks on now, unless I am standing next to a vent and feel it...

Truely amazing. I'm not sure the "official" way to put it on, I just tapped on each duct and put some until it sounded like wood. Then drywalled over it all. I even have one of my sidewall speakers next to my duct work and there is Zero vibration or noise from the duct.

Great stuff.

Here are some pics.





I also used it where the ceiling ducts open into the rooms, as they would often vibrate and rattle. Not anymore.

Dynamat is a Great product, not only for car audio, but also for your home!


Link: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1061375/complete-130-home-theater-for-under-2-000-if-i-can-do-it-so-can-you/30#post_14695085

Kal

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wubears71



Joined: 14 Mar 2012
Posts: 278
Location: Webster Groves, MO

Drinking: Keg 1- Hefenweizen, Keg 2- Vanilla Scotch Porter, Keg 3-Munich Helles

Working on: Stinky IPA


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dynamat. That brings back memories when my cars use to go boom.
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18DPA



Joined: 14 Nov 2011
Posts: 135
Location: Kuwait


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if that affects your heating and cooling bill. I would imagine in a positive way.

I remember lining the inside of a CRX with that stuff to put ridiculous sized speakers in it.

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10124
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

18DPA wrote:
I wonder if that affects your heating and cooling bill. I would imagine in a positive way.

I remember lining the inside of a CRX with that stuff to put ridiculous sized speakers in it.

I can't imagine it makes any difference. You're not completely coating all the ducts. Just placing a few here and there to add mass and reduce any movement/vibration.

Kal

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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10124
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yesterday the electrician finished up doing all the pre-wiring. That's basically pulling all the necessary wiring to the various plugs, switches, pot lights, and installing gang boxes where required. It took two and half days. The ESA (electrical safety authority) inspection was done yesterday. No issues were found. After drywall goes up the wires are connected and another inspection takes place.






Prior to the electrician arriving we spent a few hours with the designer going over the wiring layout. What switch goes where, what lights are covered by which switch, where we want outlets. It was a few hours of wandering around writing on the studs like this one in the bathroom:



Translation: '$' means a switch is needed. In this case 4 switches are installed as follows:

1. A switch for the pot light over the bench beside the sauna and the two shower pots.
2. A switch for the two pot lights in the sauna.
3. A switch for the ceiling fan.
4. A switch for the vanity light.

We're installing 4 dedicated circuits for the home theater equipment as follows:

- One 15A dedicated circuit for the powered subwoofer (1 sub now, capacity for a second in the future if required).
- One 15A dedicated circuit for the projector.
- Two 20A dedicated circuits for the equipment rack.

In addition to a few regular lights and outlets, the brewery also gets the following:

- Three 15A dedicated circuits for (up to) three freezers/fridges. One retrofitted freezer (above 32F) is for the 8 kegs on tap, a second fridge or retrofitted freezer (at about 32F) will be for lagering/aging before kegs are put on tap, and a third small freezer (standard freezer temp below freezing) for storing hops/yeast/etc that will also serve to chill the antifreeze used keep the beer lines cold.

- A 30A/240V circuit for the brewery control panel. Normally this would call for 10/3 wire but I had the electrician install 6/3 so that if I ever want to upgrade to a higher power 50A control panel (to make larger batches of beer) it would be simple. The run was short so the cost difference should be negligible. You can oversize wire like this just fine. For now the receptacle will be a standard 30A/240V dryer outlet and the panel breaker will be standard 30A/2-pole. Both can easily be changed after the fact. Wiring in the walls cannot.


Speaking of upgrading... our electrical panel is 100A and the house is fairly large. This is completely to code. If you go through the math using the Ontario Electrical Code Book, as build, the house requires a 79.2A panel which means a 100A panel is adequate. If you finish the basement with nothing out of the ordinary (just standard lights/outlets done to minimum code requirements) and add air conditioning, this jumps up to 93A. Both are still below 100A so the builder installs a 100A panel as is required.

With a sauna, brewery, and possible future hot tub/pool in the backward it was obvious to me that we'd need a 200A panel. The builder wanted what I considered an overly high amount of money to upgrade the 100A panel to 200A so I said no as that's a fairly easy job to do after the fact (just time consuming): All houses around here have 200A from the transformer to the meter already. All that needs to be done is to replace the short 100A service conductor between the meter and panel with 200A wire (usually only a few feet through the wall and down), and swap out the panel/move the breakers. You have to pay the hydro service to come and turn your service off and then back on too of course.

Well, turns out that shortly before we moved in, after all the house wiring was already done, the builder realized that they had put the meter on the wrong side of the house. So the meter was moved to the other side outside the garage wall. A new ~75 to 100 foot service conductor was pulled from the meter to the panel since the two are now far apart. Because of the long length, a 100A breaker is needed to protect the service conductor. This breaker is on the inside of our garage (on the wall directly opposite the new meter location):



When I first saw this I found it odd but it's completely to code and is more common than I thought.

The unfortunate part is that now replacing our existing 100A panel with 200A means having to also replace that very long run of service conductor wire since it only supports 100A. That's an expensive piece of wire, and pulling that isn't easy as there's no conduit. I'm not even exactly sure where it goes since the garage floor was poured and all of the drywall everywhere was up I believe before they moved the meter. From the panel the service conductor goes up through the ceiling near the outside of the house. I think it may actually go all the way up to the attic and then down the other side of the house. It may even be 200' long! The existing 100A panel is the basement is also far away from the brewery which just happens to use the largest wire (6/3), so upgrading the existing panel isn't the best choice.

So change of plan! Instead what we're doing is installing a main 200A panel in the garage where the 100A service conductor breaker is today. That 100A breaker gets moved into main 200A panel as a branch circuit breaker, making the existing 100A basement panel a sub-panel that controls the entire house and most of the basement. Circuits from the brewery, bar, and sauna (about 8 circuits total) were then pulled to the garage to be served by the new 200A panel. You can see the wires coming in to the garage in the corner in the previous photo above. A channel/chase will be built out of 1x3's and 2x4's at the bottom of the drywall to enclose the wire. It'll then be drywalled and mudded.

So a pretty elegant solution since it allows the higher current devices (sauna & brewery) to use shorter wires and also allows us an easy way to pull wires to the backyard in the future for a hottub/pool (if required). Should be more than enough capacity. The sauna draws 29A while the brewery draws 23A when brewing (the control panel) plus a few freezers (about 1A each continuous).


Looking up, we have about 40 pot lights that will be installed. The lighting layout was done on paper first:



The pots are reno pots which means they go in after drywall (not before) so all that needed to be done now was to run the 14/2 wire to the various locations where it'll be needed. Once drywall goes up round holes are cut and wires attached.


While we don't use it, the house has a central vac rough-in with drops the basement. None of the drops are connected so some time was spend connecting all this up redirecting a couple of pipes to the mechanical room in case we ever wanted to use central vac in the future. Not much to see... here are some of the leftover pieces: Wink



I'm not a fan of central vac systems (I'm the 'vacuumer' in the house). I prefer our Miele canister vacuum - it's (IMHO) considerably easier to move around than the giant 30' hoses that central vac systems come with. The one place I do find that central vac works well is in kitchens where you can have little floor vents you can sweep into. That would be convenient.


With the larger shower and sauna, the builder installed bathroom ceiling fan that was part of the rough-in had to be replaced with a larger one:



We had originally paid the builder for a "basement bathroom rough-in" which included plumbing, electrical, framing, and fan. I think about the only think left from the rough-in is the $15 GFCI outlet and the $20 of 4" flexhose for the fan to the outside. Wink The framing was torn down because the room size was wrong, the plumbing was moved because of the addition of the urinal and the larger shower, the electrical was all redone, and now the fan isn't the right size. Ah well. Live and learn.

EDIT/CORRECTION: Actually, the builder GFCI is white. We're going to want black. So there you go... only the $20 flexhose is left. Money well spent. Wink


Over the bar is going to be a dropped ceiling/bulkhead that juts into the room with 3 pots. That was framed as well:



Getting closer one step at a time!

Now that electrical's all pulled I've started doing the low voltage wiring (speakers, CAT5, CAT6, RG6 coax). I wanted to wait until electrical was done because I want to try and keep the low voltage wiring away from the higher current wiring as much as possible. More on this next time...

Kal

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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10124
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're getting close to having to insulate the ceilings and inside walls for soundproofing and I thought I'd share something as there are insulation products available that are directly marketed for soundproofing such as OC Pink QuietZone and Roxul Safe and Sound.






The short answer:

Use regular cheap pink insulation. Costs less and is slightly better in some cases.

The long answer:

- For walls & ceilings use standard fibreglass insulation, the cheapest available.
- There is little benefit to using more than 6” of insulation (R13) even in ceiling joists, so don’t.
- It doesn’t matter where the insulation is in the joist cavity (top or bottom).
- Try not to compress it too much.
- Sometimes it’s easier to use paper backed insulation on ceilings so that you can staple it up.

Reasons:

1. Fiberglass has a slight edge in the low frequencies (where it is needed the most).
2. Don't ever compress the insulation. Compression increases density, lowering low frequency absorption and increasing conduction.
3. There is no data that supports that any other insulation (including the “acoustic” labelled, and recycled cotton) works better, no matter what Owens Corning or Roxul will tell you.
4. Don’t use foam. Foam (open or closed cell) is superior for thermal, but distinctly worse for acoustic.

The NRC in Canada put this all to rest in their big study IR 693. NRC Canada proved standard fibreglass it to be slightly better at low frequencies than mineral fiber, cellulose, polyester and cotton. They showed that low density is better than high density, open cell is better than closed cell. Cellulose, mineral and fiberglass are all close, but fiberglass was the marginal winner in the low frequencies. The good news is that fiberglass is not only the best choice, but the cheapest. OC Pink QuietZone and Roxul Safe and Sound have zero benefit for sound isolating.

Backed by:

NRC Canada study IR693: http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/pubs/ir/ir832/ir832.pdf

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
Architectural Acoustics
Subject Matter Expert
Certified Home Theater Designer
CEDIA Board of Directors

Ted White – Founder http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/ - makers of Green Glue.

Terry Montlick
Terry Montlick Laboratories
Home Theater Acoustics
Critical Listening Rooms
Design, Evaluation, Alpha Certification

... and thousands of others.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
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huaco



Joined: 05 Apr 2012
Posts: 1508
Location: Burleson Texas


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is great to know for a "Project" I have WAAAAAY down the timeline of my life... Thanks for all the research.
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foomench



Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Posts: 710
Location: Longmont, CO

Drinking: Pinot barrel aged quad

Working on: Flanders oude bruin in barrel, Flanders red fermenting to refill the barrel


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
4. Don’t use foam. Foam (open or closed cell) is superior for thermal, but distinctly worse for acoustic.

I'm thinking of using foam for my walk in cooler/cellar. You can use fiberglass and a vapor barrier, but every time you punch through the wall, e.g. to run a temp sensor or beer line, etc. you've compromised the vapor barrier. Supposedly with closed cell foam this is not the case. Any thoughts?

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10124
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

foomench wrote:
kal wrote:
4. Don’t use foam. Foam (open or closed cell) is superior for thermal, but distinctly worse for acoustic.

I'm thinking of using foam for my walk in cooler/cellar. You can use fiberglass and a vapor barrier, but every time you punch through the wall, e.g. to run a temp sensor or beer line, etc. you've compromised the vapor barrier. Supposedly with closed cell foam this is not the case. Any thoughts?

Not sure. Sorry. Rigid foam board's supposed to be better than fiberglass (takes less thickness for the same R value), you just need to make sure it's all sealed up. If you do use regular fiberglass and vapour barrier, just use tuck tape to seal up any holes you make.

Kal

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 10124
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: German Lager, Electric Hop Candy Jr, Scottish 70/-, Cali Common, Maibock, Helles, Russian Imperial Stout, Black Butte Porter

Working on: Weizen


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The parts for the sauna arrived today:



The layout is going to look like this:



All finished in clear cedar so it looks something like this:



Benches at two heights: Lower row is L-shaped and has a depth of 16", the upper row has a depth of 20". Because heat rises, the higher you sit in a sauna, the hotter it is. Having two different heights allows people to share the sauna but not necessarily experience the same heat.

Sizing the heater correctly is important. Too small and you won't be able to heat the room correctly. Our 5x7' sauna room has ceilings just uner 82" high so 239 cubic feet. We chose the Swedish made Tylo Combi U7 heater which provides 7000W of heating power (29A current draw, requires a 40A/240V circuit). It's said to be sufficient for rooms from 140 to 320 cubic feet. Ours is right in the middle so it should work great. There's a U8 model available too for larger rooms (up to 440 cubic feet). They look like this:



Tylo Combi heaters are unique as they give you the option of traditional saunas or steam saunas in the same room. A traditional sauna is typically hotter at 68-90°C (155-194°F) in a lower relative humidity of 5-35%, while a steam sauna is typically cooler at 45- 65°C (110- 150°F) with a higher 40-65% humidity.

Some Finns/Estonians will argue that anything below 200°F isn't a "real" sauna as they tend to like higher temperatures: 176-230F. The relatively low humidity allows air temperatures that could boil water to be tolerated and even enjoyed for longer periods of time. These hotter saunas are what I'm used to given my Estonian background.

Doing some research, it seems that temperatures above 194°F (90°C) are not allowed in North America because of C.S.A. and U.L. standards set back in 1982. At that time, it was also mandated that there must be a high-temperature limit switch within the sauna heater. The limit switch must shut down the heater under any abnormal operating condition and have a one-hour timer maximum on all residential sauna controls. Hmmm, we'll see. There's likely a bypass switch somewhere. Wink

The control panel is integrated into the front of the heater’s buffer rail which is nice. No need to put something on the outside wall. The "Thermosafe" velvet-smooth (cool-touch) covering is also a bonus.

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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