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The Electric Pale Ale (batch #130)
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Castermmt



Joined: 03 Jan 2011
Posts: 709
Location: Lowell, In

Drinking: Steelhead Porter, Alt-Toids, Hefty-Weizen, Terry's Kolsch, African Amber, Pumpkin Ale, Double Dog Ale

Working on: Janet's Brown Ale, Terry's Kolsch, Pilsner


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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I use Beersmith2 at 85% eff. I get 32 IBUs and it taste great. You may need to adjust the IBU setting to increase the IBUs in the amount if hops used based on your brew house efficiencies.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 3723
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: New Zealand IPA, Electric Pale Ale, Bell's Two Hearted, American Lager, Kolsch, Weizen, Irish Stout, Janet's Brown

Working on: Light American Lager, Cream Ale, Stone's Enjoy By IPA, Russian Imperial Stout


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll get a lot of variances with IBU depending on the software you use, especially if it's late additions like this one. You need to take the numbers with a grain of salt and just start to get a sense for what "feels right" (IMHO).

Remember that this beer is all about hop flavour and aroma and not so much bitterness. There's still enough bitterness in there to classify it as an APA of course...

Kal

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BrewQwest



Joined: 29 Dec 2011
Posts: 27



PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
You'll get a lot of variances with IBU depending on the software you use, especially if it's late additions like this one. You need to take the numbers with a grain of salt and just start to get a sense for what "feels right" (IMHO).

Remember that this beer is all about hop flavour and aroma and not so much bitterness. There's still enough bitterness in there to classify it as an APA of course...

Kal


+1 to that Kal. And since so many people have stated how great this recipe is, one can not argue with its' success. I am still trying to get acclimated working with brewing software. I still use infusions of hot liquor as my electric brewery is just still in the formulative stages.
To assist me with my digestion of beer software, could you compare your BeerTools IBU's with what I get from beersmith? This would definitely help me understand my software better. Who knows, I just may migrate over to Beertools if need be.

For a 12 gallon post boil at 95% efficiency I came up with your exact starting gravity of 1.056 and the SRM is within a few tenths which I attribute to the malt data that I input for my grains.
For the 20 min addition of:
1 ounce Amarillo pellets I get 5.9 IBU's (all readings are with IBU's set to Tinseth)
1 ounce Centennial pellet I get 6.6 IBU's
For the 10 minute additions:
2 ounces Amarillo = 7.1 IBU
2 ounces Centennial = 7.9 IBU
For flameout (0 minute addition) IBU's = 0

I probably have corrupted a variable within my software. If you could tell me what your software is giving you for the IBU's in those hop additions, it would help me track down my error and shed some light on this "late hop addition" method of brewing. thanks again Kal, and cheers!!

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 3723
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: New Zealand IPA, Electric Pale Ale, Bell's Two Hearted, American Lager, Kolsch, Weizen, Irish Stout, Janet's Brown

Working on: Light American Lager, Cream Ale, Stone's Enjoy By IPA, Russian Imperial Stout


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I updated the original recipe to show IBU's per addition as given by Beer Tools Pro.

Beer Tools Pro by default doesn't use Rager or Tinseth. it uses something called "basic". You can select from a number of curves and even edit them yourself if you want. There's also gravity and pellet hop correction graphs that can be loaded/edited. Neither is used by default.

Here's the window where you select what to use:



If you wan to manually edit the curve or create your own it looks like this:



More details here: http://www.beertoolspro.com/wiki/Utilization


So the "basic" curve which is their default gives gives me 36.9 IBU.
Changing to the "Rager" curve gives gives me 40.5 IBU.
Changing to the "Tinseth" curve gives gives me 31.4 IBU.

There's also Mosher (24.4 IBU), Garetz (13.2 IBU), Daniels (52 IBU), and Fowler (22.3 IBU). You can create your own too.

As you can see, the IBU will vary greatly depending on which expert you want to believe as they all have different curves as they how "they" think hop bitterness is absorbed based on boil time. A range of 13.2 to 52 is massive!

I take them all with a grain of salt as there's a lot of variables involved including hop age too. I basically feel there's no such thing as too much hops near the end of the boil (last 0-5 minutes). Wink One of these days instead of adding all these hops at various times, I'd to try plopping in a full pound of hops at flameout and nowhere else and let it sit for 5 mins before chilling. I think that would be an interesting APA. I know some commercial beers only hop through a hop-back (basically the same thing).

The only thing these experts have in common is that if you boil long enough, you'll extract all of the hop bitterness. They argue a bit as to how much bitterness is extracted total but they're fairly close. Where they disagree with each other is how fast hop bitterness is extracted over the first 20-40 minutes (the early part). That's where an all-late-addition recipe like this falls apart when it comes to IBU calculations and you'll see widely varying IBU numbers. Most beers have a bittering addition at 60 minutes which gives the beer most of its bitterness so most curves will give similar results.

As an aside, I probably use about 10% of what Beer Tools Pro allows you to do. I use zero of the process based stuff as I just found it overly confusing/little value. I like the software for for recipe creation to see where it falls in terms of OG, FG, colour, alcohol, and bitterness. The inventory management is great too: I like how it has a list of basically all malts/hops and you can create your own list of what you have an manage it. I look there to see first what hops I have and how much instead of digging through the freezer.

Kal

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BrewQwest



Joined: 29 Dec 2011
Posts: 27



PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the great response Kal, and thank you posting the link above. Since this is New Years Eve, my first glass of beer tonite will be raised to you. Cheers!!
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g8tors



Joined: 05 Oct 2011
Posts: 186



PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my new favorite. I entered this into my first beer contest and won first place in the Pale Ale category. The only thing wrong with this is that I didn't have my electric brewery done yet so it was made on my old system.

Thanks Kal,

Scott
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 3723
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: New Zealand IPA, Electric Pale Ale, Bell's Two Hearted, American Lager, Kolsch, Weizen, Irish Stout, Janet's Brown

Working on: Light American Lager, Cream Ale, Stone's Enjoy By IPA, Russian Imperial Stout


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent! I'll take 1st place!

I've never entered any competitions with any of my beers (clones or my own recipes). Maybe I should try...

Kal

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perogi



Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Posts: 697
Location: NH

Drinking: Perogi's Pale Ale, Edwort's Apfelwein, Black Pumpkin (Shipyard Pumpkin and Guinness Layered)

Working on: Rebuilding my brewery during a major renovation


PostLink    Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone have the Beer Tools Pro export file for this recipe? If so, can you post it here or PM it to me?

Thanks!
perogi.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 3723
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: New Zealand IPA, Electric Pale Ale, Bell's Two Hearted, American Lager, Kolsch, Weizen, Irish Stout, Janet's Brown

Working on: Light American Lager, Cream Ale, Stone's Enjoy By IPA, Russian Imperial Stout


PostLink    Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Made this beer again today... it's been too long since I've had it!

I missed my target gravity: got 1.055/68F (target was 1.056). 94% efficiency instead of 95%. Close enough. I tihnk it's actually pretty good considering that I'm brewing in the garage temporarily.

Threw in an extra oz of Centennial at flame-out just because I had 5 oz of it packaged up (recipe calls for 4).

I love the way this wort smells/tastes. Is it wrong to just drink it as is?

Kal

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perogi



Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Posts: 697
Location: NH

Drinking: Perogi's Pale Ale, Edwort's Apfelwein, Black Pumpkin (Shipyard Pumpkin and Guinness Layered)

Working on: Rebuilding my brewery during a major renovation


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty funny - I made this today as well.

and if it's wrong to drink as is, then I'm wrong because I was tasting it during the sparge to get an idea what the different brix/SG amounts tasted like.

Did you ever get the refractometer? If so, how is it working out for you?
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Holter



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
Posts: 212
Location: Los Angeles, Ca


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Excellent! I'll take 1st place!

I've never entered any competitions with any of my beers (clones or my own recipes). Maybe I should try...

Kal


50% worth it and 50% not. Sometimes you get really good feedback on your beers and it helps you refine your process instead of working in a vacuum. When i started entering competitions (very few of them) last year i was scoring 28-35. I took some of the comments to heart and changed my process (and i built an electric brewery) and so far this year i have scored in the 40's on 1/3rd of the beers i entered. The feedback i get now is more about ingredients and less about process, so i know i worked out most of the kinks/mistakes i was making.

I say 50% not worth it because sometimes you get lazy judges that dont give you advice or good feedback on the beer. There should be a way to eliminate these judges from competitions because it makes me feel like i wasted my money. In the last competition i entered i scored 40, 41 and 42 from three judges on my IIPA. One of the scores the aroma description was "Hoppy" and the flavor was "Malty and Hoppy". There were no comments for the appearance or mouthfeel. I was tempted to write the judge an email to let him know how disappointing that was. But in the end, you take the good with the bad.

For me i prefer to get the feedback from people who i dont know and arent jaded. So for this year and maybe next year I am going to enter competitions aggressively. I would hope that after 2 years I would have learned enough about process and recipe formulation that I wouldnt need the feedback anymore.

Holter

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 3723
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: New Zealand IPA, Electric Pale Ale, Bell's Two Hearted, American Lager, Kolsch, Weizen, Irish Stout, Janet's Brown

Working on: Light American Lager, Cream Ale, Stone's Enjoy By IPA, Russian Imperial Stout


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perogi wrote:
Did you ever get the refractometer? If so, how is it working out for you?

Never used one. Hydrometer's always worked great for me.

Holter wrote:
I say 50% not worth it because sometimes you get lazy judges that dont give you advice or good feedback on the beer. There should be a way to eliminate these judges from competitions because it makes me feel like i wasted my money.

This is the main reason I think I haven't bothered. I've heard that bad beer won't get far in judging, but that if your beer is good and bang on, picking the winners often turns into 'roll the dice' because they all have varying opinions. I think I have my process really down pat and I make beers I like and am very happy with. Good enough for me.

That said, if there was a way to get some of my beers in front of some of the better/experienced judges out there I'd be all for that.

Kal

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perogi



Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Posts: 697
Location: NH

Drinking: Perogi's Pale Ale, Edwort's Apfelwein, Black Pumpkin (Shipyard Pumpkin and Guinness Layered)

Working on: Rebuilding my brewery during a major renovation


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
perogi wrote:
Did you ever get the refractometer? If so, how is it working out for you?

Never used one. Hydrometer's always worked great for me.
Kal


Ahh okay - I just saw this in the instructions and wondered if you ever went through with purchasing one.

So far, I like it. Definitely makes it quick to get your measurements. A tiny sample is all that it needs.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 3723
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: New Zealand IPA, Electric Pale Ale, Bell's Two Hearted, American Lager, Kolsch, Weizen, Irish Stout, Janet's Brown

Working on: Light American Lager, Cream Ale, Stone's Enjoy By IPA, Russian Imperial Stout


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

perogi wrote:
Ahh okay - I just saw this in the instructions and wondered if you ever went through with purchasing one.

Ah! Ok, that digital one. Yes, it's still on my list but I'm doing fine with the hydrometer so I'll probaby be a while before I ever consider purchasing it. I though you mean the usual analog ones you look though... They seem to be error prone as most people don't seem to use them right.

Quote:
So far, I like it. Definitely makes it quick to get your measurements. A tiny sample is all that it needs.

Cool - yes - that's the idea. Almost instant measurements with barely any wort needed. Hmmm... maybe I should take a look again... Father's Day is coming... Wink

Kal

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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 3723
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: New Zealand IPA, Electric Pale Ale, Bell's Two Hearted, American Lager, Kolsch, Weizen, Irish Stout, Janet's Brown

Working on: Light American Lager, Cream Ale, Stone's Enjoy By IPA, Russian Imperial Stout


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Instead of dry hopping with Citra I've been thinking of trying Ahtanum or NZ Galaxy instead... I think either would go well.

Thoughts anyone?

Kal

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Ben58



Joined: 14 Aug 2011
Posts: 329
Location: Hamilton, Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heather and I use Sorachi Ace. We really enjoy it.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 3723
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: New Zealand IPA, Electric Pale Ale, Bell's Two Hearted, American Lager, Kolsch, Weizen, Irish Stout, Janet's Brown

Working on: Light American Lager, Cream Ale, Stone's Enjoy By IPA, Russian Imperial Stout


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben58 wrote:
Heather and I use Sorachi Ace. We really enjoy it.

For the dry hop only? Not too lemony? I have that one as well.

Kal

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Ben58



Joined: 14 Aug 2011
Posts: 329
Location: Hamilton, Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, dry hop only. A BJCP judge tasted it and rated it 38+. This was our first attempt at brewing. Got a second batch in the fermentor now. Tweaked the recipe a bit and Heather named it Hoppily Married. The Sorachi has a nice citrus balance to the other hops.
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kal
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Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Posts: 3723
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Drinking: New Zealand IPA, Electric Pale Ale, Bell's Two Hearted, American Lager, Kolsch, Weizen, Irish Stout, Janet's Brown

Working on: Light American Lager, Cream Ale, Stone's Enjoy By IPA, Russian Imperial Stout


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! I may consider it! Got a week or so to go before I dry-hop.

Kal

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datlan



Joined: 09 Jan 2011
Posts: 49
Location: Portland, OR


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:56 am    Post subject: Water Adjustments Reply with quote

I plan on brewing this beer this weekend (on my Kal clone) and also attempting to adjust my water for the first time. I am using the excellent EZ Water Calculator Spreadsheet but was hoping someone could validate my numbers to make sure I am doing it correctly. This is my water analysis results from Ward Labs:

pH 7.5
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 19
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.03
Cations / Anions, me/L 0.2 / 0.2
ppm
Sodium, Na 3
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 1
Magnesium, Mg < 1
Total Hardness, CaCO3 7
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S < 1
Chloride, Cl 3
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 9
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 7
"<" - Not Detected / Below Detection Limit

You can see what I am thinking of adding below. I added stuff until I matched the numbers specified in the recipe. My pH was still at 5.6, so I added lactic acid. There seem to be differing opinions on the ideal pH, so I'm not how sure I far I should try to take this. I currently have it at 5.37, but that takes 5 ml of lactic acid. Kai Troester says to keep lactic acid under 0.5ml/lb. For 19.75 lbs of grain, that would be a max of almost 10ml, so I'm still well under that (if I'm understanding him correctly). Should I keep going with the acid to get closer to Kal's recommended 5.2-5.3?

Do you see any other mistakes I have made or have any recommendations?

Thanks!

-Derek



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